Spitfires

[Figment]

Eh dealing with CE was daily life for a carreer infil. Better know how it works. The T-REK appalled me because it took the challenge out of CE fields and made them work for you. Since there is no limit on how many spits a T-REK could take over, I once controlled around 50 spits on my own, not including the ones I placed...

[Arashmickey]

I would want to see limitations. Some options:

They're not very lethal.

Only 1 per engineer, working only when said engi is alive, and possibly within a certain distance to the turret.

Deployment takes time.

Easily visible, either all the time and obtrusively so, or when firing, or once they fire their first shot (in case they're to be usable in ambush at all)

Needs resources.

Cannot be repaired.

Deploying a turret makes engi weaker, employs his main rifle, or otherwise nerfs him.

Classes, esp. infiltrators can quickly turn or dispose of them without it automatically alerting everyone to their presence. Does not detect cloak.


I stand behind the idea that players should be doing the spotting, shooting, and influencing enemy maneuvers as much as possible, and via line-of-sight as much as possible. The only situations I can imagine wanting to see them in PS2, is as a last resort, when one side is outmatched and needs all the presence and suppression they can, or as a warning system in a lightly guarded area that is not under attack. Ambush is another possibility.

People have already made interesting suggestions here and there, to improve the dynamics of those circumstances without including turrets.

When it comes to a prepared defense of already guarded, fortified, advantageous positions, it's already a fair challenge and a lot of fun, and very rewarding. Do we really need additional layers of complexity in the dynamics there? Do the bridges and winding paths leading up to the Crown need more autoturrets and mines? Do we want even more guns pointed at the airplane platforms of a biodome?

Whether spitfires can be balanced to be fun, fulfilling certain roles without having too much influence in other circumstances, such as hotspots for big battles, seems to me an extremely difficult question.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Arashmickey

I would want to see limitations. Some options:

They're not very lethal.

Lethal is relative. If you're on 10% health, stubbing your toe is lethal. We're not talking a one second TTK no, more like 3-5 seconds, plenty of time to react.

Only 1 per engineer, working only when said engi is alive, and possibly within a certain distance to the turret.

Pointlessly restrictive. This is an unit that's only worthwhile in quantities and only has an effect in time because chances are it's not going to fire at all during the engineer's lifetime, it's not a quality unit like a gun you fire and control. Ambush takes patience, if you don't want them in, just say so and don't nerf something you never seen to the point of uselesness just because you're overreactive kneejerking and call it a compromise when it's really just a way to prevent it from entering the game.

Deployment takes time.

Always has taken about 3 seconds to setup, but you should realise time is somewhat irrelevant since you'd only set them up when you have time anyway.

Easily visible, either all the time and obtrusively so, or when firing, or once they fire their first shot (in case they're to be usable in ambush at all)

Why would you presume otherwise?

Needs resources.

Probably would, though resources have yet to restrict anything in game.

Cannot be repaired.

Why not? I don't think you realise how easy they are to kill.

Deploying a turret makes engi weaker, employs his main rifle, or otherwise nerfs him.

Why? You have a one second or less TTK on the guy, what more do you possibly need? Irrational demand tbh.

Classes, esp. infiltrators can quickly turn or dispose of them without it automatically alerting everyone to their presence. Does not detect cloak.

Depends. First off, everyone can dispose of them, but infils should have the most trouble with them. Detection rules can be a lot more sophisticated, such as based on the amount of motion generated, taking damage, if it is working together with trip wires or other detection units (like motion sensors of old and radar).

I stand behind the idea that players should be doing the spotting, shooting, and influencing enemy maneuvers as much as possible, and via line-of-sight as much as possible. The only situations I can imagine wanting to see them in PS2, is as a last resort, when one side is outmatched and needs all the presence and suppression they can, or as a warning system in a lightly guarded area that is not under attack.

You should play some PS1 some day...

Ambush is another possibility.

Under the rules you posted above, no, it's not very likely it's usable for ambush.

People have already made interesting suggestions here and there, to improve the dynamics of those circumstances without including turrets.

When it comes to a prepared defense of already guarded, fortified, advantageous positions, it's already a fair challenge and a lot of fun, and very rewarding. Do we really need additional layers of complexity in the dynamics there? Do the bridges and winding paths leading up to the Crown need more autoturrets and mines? Do we want even more guns pointed at the airplane platforms of a biodome?

Whether spitfires can be balanced to be fun, fulfilling certain roles without having too much influence in other circumstances, such as hotspots for big battles, seems to me an extremely difficult question.

Wait, there are fortified, advantageous positions in PS2? Where are those?

You mention The Crown, which mostly is hard to take because you fight to factions at the same time and there's no instant switching like you had with a Gal Drop in PS2. That's a world design issue. Either way, the Crown is not fortified, it sits on high ground. Big difference.

Airplane platforms of biodomes (and teleporters) are poorly designed as well because they disconnect with the ground and require massive disconnected leaps into predictable spots held by enemies to reach up there. That is a base design issue. And again, high ground, but no fortifications at all.


Beyond that, I'm surprised you didn't actually suggest more important restrictions, like that it would require to be outdoors and not usable indoors, certainly not in or near a spawnroom. And that there'd have to be a density limitation (interference radius).

It's also funny that you haven't considered the actual fortification context: walls. Have you noticed how easy it is to bypass these fortifications in this game thanks to something called a jetpack and thus how easy it is to flank you?

A density limitation is much more important than a numerical limitation.

[Arashmickey]

Hi Figment, thanks for your reply. This will be my only response, unless you accept that you did not read or interpret my post very well at all. You owe me an apology.

Originally Posted by Figment

Irrational demand tbh.
Under the rules you posted above...

These are clearly listed as options. Not all of them are necessary. Not all of them are good. They indicate my preferences, and then only in theory.

If you want to talk rules and demands, talk to the devs. They are the ones who take ultimate responsibility for pressing the sharp point of their rules and demands into your tender heart.

Originally Posted by Figment

This is an unit that's only worthwhile

Always has taken about 3 seconds to setup,

I don't think you realise how easy they are to kill.

The reason why we discuss theory, as opposed to practice, is because the spitfire doesn't yet exist in the context of PS2 gameplay - a fact that you seem to have difficulty accepting, judging from the way you're talking about them in present tense. I do try to keep that fact in mind, and for instance, I don't make presumptions about visibility, because 1. the spitfire doesn't exist in PS2, and 2. visibility of threats ranges between bright vehicles and deployable AP turrets, to units holding their fire, to cloaked units, etc.

And no, I won't play PS1 just to enjoy the original spitfire experience, much less to try and understand your personal tastes.

Originally Posted by Figment

Depends. First off, everyone can dispose of them, but infils should have the most trouble with them.

The fact that you didn't explain why, makes me suspicious that your implementation of spitfires wouldn't be a good addition to PS2 at all, even if it came at no time and money expense.

You do contribute some interesting things though...

I like the point you made about resources not being much of a limitation in the game so far. I've had the same experience.

I would take into consideration what you said about "density limitation is much more important than a numerical limitation."

When I said "already guarded, fortified, advantageous positions" I meant "already guarded/fortified/advantageous positions" Thanks for pointing out my error.

Originally Posted by Figment

I'm surprised you...
It's also funny that you...
Have you noticed how...

... if you don't want them in, just say so and don't nerf something you never seen to the point of uselesness just because you're overreactive kneejerking and call it a compromise when it's really just a way to prevent it from entering the game.

This passive-aggressive bullpoppy and strawmanning is why I don't think I will be discussing anything worthwhile with you. You know next to nothing about me, and won't get anywhere projecting your emotional turmoil onto me.

If YOU don't like something in YOUR life, walk away. Otherwise, you'll end up taking it out on people like me, who just want to have a good discussion about possibilities for making a great game even better. You're pushing away decent, if less knowledgeable, people (and you're not helping PS2 either). That's my layman opinion on what just happened there and why you should care.

edit: Grammar and spelling

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Arashmickey

Hi Figment, thanks for your reply. This will be my only response, unless you accept that you did not read or interpret my post very well at all. You owe me an apology.

These are clearly listed as options. Not all of them are necessary. Not all of them are good. They indicate my preferences, and then only in theory.

I read it as a summation of rules, not choices. Maybe you could have phrased that better too. But okay.

If you want to talk rules and demands, talk to the devs. They are the ones who take ultimate responsibility for pressing the sharp point of their rules and demands into your tender heart.

See, experiences with past fixes by devs in SOE games suggest they always either do nothing or take all specs and alter those over the top. :/ have to be very precise in telling them how and what.

The reason why we discuss theory, as opposed to practice, is because the spitfire doesn't yet exist in the context of PS2 gameplay - a fact that you seem to have difficulty accepting, judging from the way you're talking about them in present tense. I do try to keep that fact in mind, and for instance, I don't make presumptions about visibility, because 1. the spitfire doesn't exist in PS2, and 2. visibility of threats ranges between bright vehicles and deployable AP turrets, to units holding their fire, to cloaked units, etc.

I speak in relation to PS1 Spitfires. I agree they shouldn't be cloaked, but then we would be talking about Shadow Turrets from a PS1 frame of reference. The Spitfire exists in PS1 so it is likely for me to speak on past or present tense about them.

And no, I won't play PS1 just to enjoy the original spitfire experience, much less to try and understand your personal tastes.

Then you should realise that we differ 9 years experience with people being ble to set up 10-15 of these Spitfires as well. We have preconceived notions about them.

The fact that you didn't explain why, makes me suspicious that your implementation of spitfires wouldn't be a good addition to PS2 at all, even if it came at no time and money expense.

Because infiltrators have it easier to get in these situations and are the ones who will try to sabotage and sneak in. Dismantling and bypassing security is part of our role and one of the main challenges presented to infils, it is also fun to disable a grid of CE without anyone noticing, finding the weakness in the perimeter. Etc. Having played infil almost exclusively for 9 years I know full well that properly later CE can be the only thing between us and a dead base. My fault for presuming what to me is obvious is general knowledge. Sorry.

When the permanent infil is introduced - and apparently it will - you will see a lot more cloaked players. These must be kept in check in part by evaluating the risk of an attack, by slowing them down and by giving away their position. Otherwise they will go on a rampage of ganking loners and unaware. In the amount of cover of these courtyards, hiding is relatively easy and avoiding line of sight is as well.

You have so much ground to cover with defenses, one temporary simply won't be enough.

You do contribute some interesting things though...

I like the point you made about resources not being much of a limitation in the game so far. I've had the same experience.

I would take into consideration what you said about "density limitation is much more important than a numerical limitation."

When I said "already guarded, fortified, advantageous positions" I meant "already guarded/fortified/advantageous positions" Thanks for pointing out my error.

Ah.

This passive-aggressive bullpoppy and strawmanning is why I don't think I will be discussing anything worthwhile with you. You know next to nothing about me, and won't get anywhere projecting your emotional turmoil onto me.

I'm just blunt in debates, don't take it personal - if I say something it is about the comment/quote in question, not a general opinion of you.

[Arashmickey]

Originally Posted by Figment

I read it as a summation of rules, not choices. Maybe you could have phrased that better too. But okay.

Hey, thanks. You're right, I could have stressed more that they're just different options to play around with. I think I just said "some options". Also, since you really love this mechanic, I can understand why you took it the wrong way. I have my favourite toys, too No hard feelings.

Originally Posted by Figment

See, experiences with past fixes by devs in SOE games suggest they always either do nothing or take all specs and alter those over the top. :/ have to be very precise in telling them how and what.

Fair enough. It's just that, no matter what you and I say, in the end it's still their thing.

Originally Posted by Figment

I speak in relation to PS1 Spitfires. I agree they shouldn't be cloaked, but then we would be talking about Shadow Turrets from a PS1 frame of reference. The Spitfire exists in PS1 so it is likely for me to speak on past or present tense about them.

Then you should realise that we differ 9 years experience with people being ble to set up 10-15 of these Spitfires as well. We have preconceived notions about them.

Now that I know, I can deal with present tense, won't hold it against you or anyone. They had cloaked turrets too? I missed its glory days, and wish I had time to explore PS1. Unfortunately, I theorize in a knowledge vacuum. I really do hope to see the spitfire! I also wanted to give my opinion based on how I enjoyed PS2 so far, but for the most part I think I'll leave the theory to the devs, vets, pros. I can always chime in again on the balance, if it gets implemented.

Originally Posted by Figment

Because infiltrators have it easier to get in these situations and are the ones who will try to sabotage and sneak in. Dismantling security is part of our role. Having played infil almost exclusively for 9 years I know full well that properly later CE can be the only thing between us and a dead base. My fault for presuming what to me is obvious is general knowledge. Sorry.

When the permanent infil is introduced - and apparently it will - you will see a lot more cloaked players. These must be kept in check in part by evaluating the risk of an attack, by slowing them down and by giving away their position. Otherwise they will go on a rampage of ganking loners and unaware. In the amount of cover of these courtyards, hiding is relatively easy and avoiding line of sight is as well.

You have so much ground to cover with defenses, one temporary simply won't be enough.

Thanks, no problem. Yep, I hadn't seen that many cloakers yet, and it was a fair battle when I did at sparsely defended places. I did spot infil-only squads a once or twice. Anyway, I'm total noob so I didn't know. The reason why I was suspicious, was because infils are supposed to be better at their role, and singling them out seems well... strange. It didn't make sense from a realistic standpoint, and from a gameplay standpoint it only made sense if the infil was already unbalanced in such a way, that nerfing the infil doesn't work, but instead of the turret should be more resistant to infils and infils alone.

Originally Posted by Figment

I'm just blunt in debates, don't take it personal - if I say something it is about the comment/quote in question, not a general opinion of you.

Exactly Since it had little to do with me or what I actually said, I figured it must be something else. Maybe you were stressed, or something is eating you, or whatever. Either way I ended up as the target for some frustration. It's cool though. Thanks for taking the trouble to reply like a total sport. You proved me wrong in that we can totally have a discussion that's fruitful - at least it was for the new guy hehe!

Can't add much more that isn't probably already said. Hope spitfire gets in

[Figment]

You may want to read up on these certifications from PlanetSide 1:

http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/...at_Engineering

http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/...ruction_Engine

http://wiki.planetsidesyndicate.com/...on_Engineering

Of course, we had a different type of certification tree then. Not everyone would have access to them simply because you had to make a choice in support tools, vehicles, suits and weapons for use in both one life, but also any life (unlike now, where you only pick your tools for use in one life and are allowed access to everything to pick from).


Using the inventory system, this is how you'd use this stuff (note that TRAPs and Aegis turrets were restricted to ground placement only shortly after this video must have been made):

This is what two Fortification Engineer would be capable of (only the line of mines and TRAPs south of the base):



And then spend 11 more motion sensors and 10 more Spitfire Turrets elsewhere. With a range of 50m and an interference range of 25 meters (spacing of turrets had to be at least 25 meters in a globe around it), you needed to place them properly to do damage. Five mines is about sufficient to stop one tank, so a line of tanks facing the above setup would have it relatively easy storming through, especially if they had a Sunderer with EMP blast (destroys all mines within 30m and deactivates all Spitfire turrets) among them.

Of course, EMPs are another thing. We presume one has plenty of EMP grenades to disable vehicles, mines and other CE (6 to 9 would be good). In PS2 of course, you can only have up to 3 right now and it's quite the investment.

[Crator]

There were sensor disruptor deployables too. Makes it so enemy radar wouldn't detect your ground movements. Also, shield generator deployables.

[Storn]

I always liked the Spitfires! Does it slow down play in some cases? Yes, but it allows for more defense. Helps the small teams bolster defenses options and at the same time makes people think twice before just running around a corner without checking it first.
Setup a motion sensor next to a spitfire guarding a sunderer you give options against cloaker. I enjoyed being an engineer in PS1.
PS2 engineer lacks the options the PS1 engineer had.

[Figment]

I've been trying mines in PS2 tonight. On a road that was roughly 10 meters wide, the mine didn't even go off when the Magriders moved half to one meter away from it... It made four passes along it and it just wouldn't go off.

Infuriating. If I had had 15 mines, I might have hit and killed at least some of the many Mags that moved over that road, but instead, you get one shot after you keep trying to lure them over it in desperation, since you're out of ammo that can damage them...

[Redwing]

I agree with what many have said.

I loved being and Engie in PS1 i can see on the map where the enemy is going next in PS1 i would lay defenses now you see a load of tanks mags incomming you just watch as they take over in seconds.
I like the FPS but also the tactical side as well , also you dont hav ethe disadvantage of always fighting against the people with the best rigs giving slight advantage or in the case of PS2 people who buy the best guns. BTW not having a go at them people good luck to them just saying I think it needs more balance.

[GLaDOS]

Just saying, since the Miscellaneous Planetside 2 forum in the official forums got shut down, I tried starting a new thread, summing up this one, in the General Discussion forums. It kind of died right away, and although I tried resurrecting it today, it was ignored again. It's also called Spitfires, if anybody wants to comment on it, feel free.

[GLaDOS]

Well, there's some good news right here. Someone named Hyllan on the official forums posted in the Lasher thread, talking about the Lancer, and gave us this lovely little screenshot of some of the game files:

You can see one of the files there is the Engineer Ability 01: AI Turret. This pretty much confirms that the devs are at least thinking about adding spitfires at some point, which is nice. The Bro-Gun looks pretty cool too.

[Buggsy]

Originally Posted by Storn

I always liked the Spitfires! Does it slow down play in some cases? Yes, but it allows for more defense. Helps the small teams bolster defenses options and at the same time makes people think twice before just running around a corner without checking it first.
Setup a motion sensor next to a spitfire guarding a sunderer you give options against cloaker. I enjoyed being an engineer in PS1.
PS2 engineer lacks the options the PS1 engineer had.

There are zero defensive options in PS2, which is why everyone rolls around with the zerg and caps undefended bases.

Most important tools for defense:

1) PS1 CE
2) AMS cloak

We have none of that.

[Buggsy]

Originally Posted by LONGFELLA KOJ

If they did not kill the attackers, they allowed me to watch my deployed stats to see if a mine had been killed or a turret was removed.

Which is exactly what I said, untended mine-fields are useless.

You were present: ergo, the effectiveness of your CE was multiplied.