Nerf the NC MAX.

[Maniya]

Originally Posted by thegreekboy

Hacksaw:
skip

You can't just balance things out by just DPS numbers, without any other things such as positioning, distance and whatever that is. Which i don't agree on anything you just said on your post. NC Max can kill 4 mercy Maxes? Hah? If you facing afk 4 Mercy Maxes yes. you can.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by BIGGByran

@thegreekboy
The numbers you produce are assuming all shots hit and are only under ideal situation. Need to do a field test like the video posted before us.

Agreed. Weapon spread alone ruins all DPS numbers with every meter between targets.

I know for a fact that Im not to take another MAX head on without a repairman in my ass. Iv even gotten the drop on a few MAXes and couldn't get the kill before reloading. That's the main problem NC MAXes have. We're forced to reload after every kill and if that first set of rounds fail to kill then we're fucked and take heavy damage.

[BIGGByran]

Originally Posted by Chewy

Agreed. Weapon spread alone ruins all DPS numbers with every meter between targets.

I know for a fact that Im not to take another MAX head on without a repairman in my ass. Iv even gotten the drop on a few MAXes and couldn't get the kill before reloading. That's the main problem NC MAXes have. We're forced to reload after every kill and if that first set of rounds fail to kill then we're fucked and take heavy damage.

Yes! That's why I don't run Hacksaws, you sometimes just end up unloading a whole clip (even extended clips) onto 1 person and your sh!t. I run Scattercannot (not extended) and Grinder (extended clip) so that when 1 is reloading, I still have enough ammo on the other. So it's like they are taking turns reloading and "should" never be completely out of ammo on both guns at the same time.

I ran into a few NC Maxs on my alts and they weren't a problem at all when I kepted my distance but if I ever ran into one (under 10m) I would be dead, but that goes for any Max (with AI). All maxs are deadly at close range, but NC doesn't have the deadliness at range like other maxs. I am not sure about VS max but I think they need a buff in dmg or just an increase in accuracy.

[Chewy]

I run dual Mattocks and can't go past 15m. Still working on getting the extended mags and might just play with slugs for one to test it out. Though if they work like the slugs on my mauler then I wouldn't advise on them with MAXes being unable to ADS. Hip fire with slugs SUCKS, but the ADS is near 100% perfect. Only problems are the travel time (can understand seeing how the slug is the size of my thumb), the INSANE drop, and it taking 3 body shots for a kill (again, it's a mass of lead as big as a thumb! Should be a 2 shot in my opinion).

I can understand the hate for shotguns. I hate them too in games, but for other reasons. Others think that no weapon should be great at CQC as that's where most of fights happen, but it's a shotgun. A shock weapon that's made to put someone on their ass at the greatest risk to the user. The reason I hate shotguns in games is that they are either pure CQC or crap. Putting slugs in it should be like a mid range sniper.

I think of snipers as sucker punches. Very hard to see coming and often remove the first hit from a fight but become hard to pull off once known. ARs (and to a point SMGs) are fair fights, you can tell that they are there and have a chance. Shotguns are ball shots, very hard to pull off unknown and easy to block (keep distance or not enter an uncleared room without backup or prepping it with a grenade if it's high risk like a cap point) but damn do they hurt if he gets you.



You know what, I'll commit a shotgun sin for those that are having problems. An easy way to tell it someone is in a room is to listen for foot steps. If you hear ANY from within the room and don't see friendly tags then it's shields up (HA) and grenade spam. Can't tell you how many times just hearing the foot steps of an enemy told where he was, what door he was coming to/covering, and when/where to enter myself. Each factions MAX even have their own walking/moving sounds like the ESFs. Learn them and you'll never get a "Oh Hi!" moment unless the enemy is knows to not bounce around like mad.

[Dkamanus]

As people said, HAcksaw are "OP" because ALL pellets have a tendency to hit at 5M. @10, you end up losing two pellets to spread. That alone is a 1/3 damage down. And remember, we are doing so against a huge target that is a MAX. You'll lose more against infantry. @ 15m, against infantry, it'll be EVEN bigger the discrepency.

When I did the tests, I knew the problem the NC MAX had at beta which was not having enough bullets. With enough bullets, the NC MAX could actually kill people, but not easily. The spread as it is now is fine, on being @5m will make all the pellets hit, making you miss more and more pellets the farther away you are, diminishing a LOT your damage. Even slugs won't help since a target won't stand still all the time like the tests.

[Electrofreak]

OP ignorant tears are pretty funny. Are we sure we're not being trolled?

Everyone else has explained the strengths and weaknesses of the scatmax. They are rather easily put down outside of 10 to 15 meters. Inside of that range, if you can't get behind them, you're going to have a hard time staying alive.

cycler max and pulsar max are only slightly less deadly at close range, and much more versatile.

[thegreekboy]

Originally Posted by Electrofreak

OP ignorant tears are pretty funny. Are we sure we're not being trolled?

Everyone else has explained the strengths and weaknesses of the scatmax. They are rather easily put down outside of 10 to 15 meters. Inside of that range, if you can't get behind them, you're going to have a hard time staying alive.

cycler max and pulsar max are only slightly less deadly at close range, and much more versatile.

Question- have you ever played a different faction and tried to capture a tower/biolab versus the 666 Hacksaw Max brigade? Well let me tell you a little story. Indar bay point. TRG is playing on off hours and we have about 2 squads. We drop on indar bay point. 5 minutes later, 3 dual hacksaw maxes show up and kill 24 guys. Only 1 scatmax went down.

Scenario 2: We're at a biolab. We get around 30 mercy Max'es at a teleporter trying to break the biolab stalemate. We get in, run smack dab into the 666 Hacksaw brigade. I was lead, I ran into a single Hacksaw MAX. I kid you not, instant death.

The DPS numbers do tell tales, as much as you guys would like to deny it. As an infantryman, I've been sniped off buildings by scatmaxes at least 30 meters away.

You also need to understand our default MAX weapon misses about every other hit if not shot at less that 15 meters. The reason why we all roll Mercy's is that it can actually shoot semi-accurately at over 20 meters.

[james]

The nc max is fine as it total shat if its not in your face. Yes they are op at close, but thats the nc strength. Plus they are shotguns if your annoyed a shotgun killed you in a cqc situation you need to learn what a shotgun is meant for.

Yes we can go on rampages in cqc, but if you die from a nc max outside of a building that your problem

[klossboss]

Originally Posted by james

The nc max is fine as it total shat if its not in your face. Yes they are op at close, but thats the nc strength. Plus they are shotguns if your annoyed a shotgun killed you in a cqc situation you need to learn what a shotgun is meant for.

Yes we can go on rampages in cqc, but if you die from a nc max outside of a building that your problem

And MAXes are made for what?
- Dual Burster (Anti Air)
- Dual Mercy/Hacksaw (Anti Inf)
- Dual Pounder (Anti Veh)

Where do most infantry engagements occur? At and towards capture points. How much room are in these rooms that have capture points? At MOST 20m. And that's being generous. On capture points that have towers, the Alpha capture point room itself is no more than 10m across doorway to doorway. And at that point is where the goal/all infantry run towards.

That is where the issue at hand is coming from. That 1 out of the 3 factions has a far superior advantage where it matters most.

Also, that video that was posted, was uploaded to Youtube way back on September 3rd 2012... Seems very relevant and up to date to me...

[Varsam]

Originally Posted by klossboss

And MAXes are made for what?
- Dual Burster (Anti Air)
- Dual Mercy/Hacksaw (Anti Inf)
- Dual Pounder (Anti Veh)

Where do most infantry engagements occur? At and towards capture points. How much room are in these rooms that have capture points? At MOST 20m. And that's being generous. On capture points that have towers, the Alpha capture point room itself is no more than 10m across doorway to doorway. And at that point is where the goal/all infantry run towards.

That is where the issue at hand is coming from. That 1 out of the 3 factions has a far superior advantage where it matters most.

Also, that video that was posted, was uploaded to Youtube way back on September 3rd 2012... Seems very relevant and up to date to me...

This.

I'm really tired of people using the "scatmaxes suck at range" argument to justify the dominance of scatmaxes. If the game were a simple death match with wildly varying terrain types you'd see infantry in, that might be a valid argument. But this game revolves around base captures, which is where the bulk of infantry combat happens. All Points of interest in base capture (generators, scu, towers, buildings) force cqc, and this is where you see maxes. It is very, very easy in this case as a max to control the engagement so that you only engage at your optimal range. You would actually have to try harder in order to NOT engage at close range. In all of these scenarios, the brutal effectiveness and advantage scatmaxes have over their other empire counterparts is clear. NC maxes have capabilities that the other empires simply do not have. This is the same reasoning behind the magrider nerf (poorly implemented as it was), and so should be sound reasoning behind a scatmax nerf.

[Chewy]

Originally Posted by klossboss

And MAXes are made for what?
- Dual Burster (Anti Air)
- Dual Mercy/Hacksaw (Anti Inf)
- Dual Pounder (Anti Veh)

Where do most infantry engagements occur? At and towards capture points. How much room are in these rooms that have capture points? At MOST 20m. And that's being generous. On capture points that have towers, the Alpha capture point room itself is no more than 10m across doorway to doorway. And at that point is where the goal/all infantry run towards.

That is where the issue at hand is coming from. That 1 out of the 3 factions has a far superior advantage where it matters most.

Also, that video that was posted, was uploaded to Youtube way back on September 3rd 2012... Seems very relevant and up to date to me...

Ok then lets make a new video for an up to date test.

It would take just 3 people on the same server with each being one of the factions (6 needed to remove MAX timers to speed things up with revives and heals). Once everyone is talking to each other (TS, mumble, skype) they all go to a far off outpost and each faction rep spawns an AMS sundy (taking turns hacking the terminals) for ammo, spawning, and class changes. Once that's all done you can either do the tests in that outpost or no-mans land (to lower chances of a pub player popping up) in about 30 minutes to an hour. You don't even need dual AI weapons, a BR0 (zero, not bro) can be used for the test as you can use a trial for a dual of the stock weapons.

Im willing to take the time to do this and can even record the entire thing as I have FRAPS and an empty 1TB HDD to store a few hours of (good quality) video. Anyone else willing to help? Shoot me a PM and we'll see what can be done over the weekend.

[Sledgecrushr]

Ok I was at eisa tech plant guarding the southern vehicle entrance with a scat max when our defense was run over. The first two tr through the entrance ate dual hacksaws. Now we were fighting a coordinated group so I was immediately supressed by cannon fire. Two tr took a position on the far side of the vehicle bay and gunned me down with zero fight from me. These guys knew the limitations of my max and took advantage of that with impunity. I really hope the devs fix the nc max from a point blank killing machine to a more dynamic all around killing machine.

[klossboss]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Ok I was at eisa tech plant guarding the southern vehicle entrance with a scat max when our defense was run over. The first two tr through the entrance ate dual hacksaws. Now we were fighting a coordinated group so I was immediately supressed by cannon fire. Two tr took a position on the far side of the vehicle bay and gunned me down with zero fight from me. These guys knew the limitations of my max and took advantage of that with impunity. I really hope the devs fix the nc max from a point blank killing machine to a more dynamic all around killing machine.

Sounds like you just need to be a better player. You could of used your MAX rush/sprint away from them or behind cover. Also, your story is pretty vague. And also, why is a scatmax guarding a vehicle entrance? And why not the double doors (if the vertical/horizontal generators were up).

To me, NC realize I am right, which I am lol. Majority of infantry battles occur at chock points and capture points. Not wide open spaces. And if they do, there is always the option of hitting your sprint and running away or behind cover. But, people will always come in here coming up with their 1 or 2 time stories of how they died in a MAX to justify them not being OP in the current game setup. But the "majority" of the time, NC scat/haxsaw MAXes are far superior to what the VS/TR have. And that is why we're having this discussion.

[thegreekboy]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Ok I was at eisa tech plant guarding the southern vehicle entrance with a scat max when our defense was run over. The first two tr through the entrance ate dual hacksaws. Now we were fighting a coordinated group so I was immediately supressed by cannon fire. Two tr took a position on the far side of the vehicle bay and gunned me down with zero fight from me. These guys knew the limitations of my max and took advantage of that with impunity. I really hope the devs fix the nc max from a point blank killing machine to a more dynamic all around killing machine.

That's a very isolated scenario. For the most part heavy infantry fighting occurs in close quarters, which is why your MAXes dominate so much. Very few heavy fights take place in an open area.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by klossboss

Sounds like you just need to be a better player. You could of used your MAX rush/sprint away from them or behind cover. Also, your story is pretty vague. And also, why is a scatmax guarding a vehicle entrance? And why not the double doors (if the vertical/horizontal generators were up).

To me, NC realize I am right, which I am lol. Majority of infantry battles occur at chock points and capture points. Not wide open spaces. And if they do, there is always the option of hitting your sprint and running away or behind cover. But, people will always come in here coming up with their 1 or 2 time stories of how they died in a MAX to justify them not being OP in the current game setup. But the "majority" of the time, NC scat/haxsaw MAXes are far superior to what the VS/TR have. And that is why we're having this discussion.

I figured since we were having a speculative anecdotal argument then I would just throw out my last experience with hacksaw max. The only REAL evidence we have seen shows that hacksaw maxes are pretty worthless against other maxes outside of five meters.