AA max VS Sky guard! Why they must be changed. - Page 9

Obstruction · 2013-06-18, 08:50 PM

I'm not even sure the range on the bursters is that big a deal.

it's not the one max unit, as we've been saying all along. the problem is 6 butthurt infantry pulls them from behind shields and spams clip after clip.

there may be damage drop off and cone of fire, but the aggregate effect of that much blind fire equates to taking steady flak hits from 900m away, for the pilot. each max unit may only register 1 or 2 random hits, but the pilots are constantly taking potshots with no way to evade. and in the case of lattice/indar they can be taking those hits from multiple bases that they aren't even engaging, but of which they just happen to be within max render distance.

add to it that it is never just flak, but tank shells, lock on a2a and g2a, and random basilisk fire (often from friendlies that can't or just won't IFF.)

I got money on that a lot of people will be enjoying farming aircraft with the new skyguards.

i'd still like to see skyguard available on the harasser too. or just moved to harasser altogether.

GreyFrog · 2013-06-18, 08:59 PM

One or two shots is enough to keep your nanites off, you die to attrition if you hang around. Or alternate scenario you are flying to evade something and let the nanites rep you back up, but the flak keeps this from happening.

But we were killing libs over Rashnu bio with MAX bursters from Rust Mesa, this is not good gameplay and I'd have been shitty to be on the receiving end.

snafus · 2013-06-18, 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by Chewy

The way I see changes is that if Skyguards are to be the main things to keep air at bay then there needs to be more ways/places to pull Skyguards at costs that compare to air. It's true that most anywhere you can get air you can get a skyguard, but air can go anywhere while skyguards can not.

Attackers always will need a way to protect their AMSs from air. Lower Burster range then EFS and libs can hover at distance and spam rockets/shells or pepper with shredders and nose guns. Shredders already ruin vehicles at ranges bursters have problems with. Lock-ons will be required more than ever now.

Maybe if vehicle costs depended on what weapons it has instead of a flat rate for all. Say if you go for a general use makeup it costs full (HEAT, Viper, ect) but special order (skyguard, AP, ect) and costs are lower. Then you add costs for the gunner seat so that lightnings and harassers can stay cheaper than MBTs. Flashes can also be great from this. Stock A to B flash 50res, weaponized flash with cloak 150. Could even add costs for options like smoke, auto repair, and what not.

If you can't get a skyguard at a location then you also can't get other vehicles there. You are missing the point that the burster will be there to defend infantry while the skyguard defends vehicles. If you are in an area that only infantry have acces to like a mountain top then aircraft have to come within render distance to even hit you. That means bursters can then do their job. What part of this are you guys not getting? there are no loop holes, there are no hovering libs farming with impunity. If they come withing render range bursters can kill them. If they don't you get to sit there and wave as he can't even see you.

And if they are attacking your vehicles you better have a skyguard with it. Other wise that LIB/ESF gets to farm your ass. Don't be lazy and just pull AMS all day. You need to bring other vehicles to defend them in the future and the sky guard will be one of them.

Chewy · 2013-06-19, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by snafus

If you can't get a skyguard at a location then you also can't get other vehicles there. You are missing the point that the burster will be there to defend infantry while the skyguard defends vehicles. If you are in an area that only infantry have acces to like a mountain top then aircraft have to come within render distance to even hit you. That means bursters can then do their job. What part of this are you guys not getting? there are no loop holes, there are no hovering libs farming with impunity. If they come withing render range bursters can kill them. If they don't you get to sit there and wave as he can't even see you.

And if they are attacking your vehicles you better have a skyguard with it. Other wise that LIB/ESF gets to farm your ass. Don't be lazy and just pull AMS all day. You need to bring other vehicles to defend them in the future and the sky guard will be one of them.

It's not just getting to the location. You not only have to survive the trip but you have to stay alive once you get there. A skyguard is lucky to just make the trip if the defenders are worth a damn and once you get close to anything with infantry then you have to worry about C4, rockets, and lock-ons while watching the sky. You can't watch the sky and look for ground threats at the same time.

It is piss easy for a flyer to get on location by going over everything, but any ground troop or vehicle needs to take paths. Paths take time, more time than air needs to ruin anything from vehicle render range. Then you have to even be at a base that lets you pull lightnings. If bursters can't defend an AMS at vehicle render range then how can they keep it safe from air? A lib at max height can do some damn good damage on an AMS now before having to go repair. And Im certain that lightnings are softer targets for a good lib gunner. It doesn't matter if that lib can't hurt infantry, it can kill the spawn and thus remove all infantry anyway.

How the hell is a skyguard suppose to stay live and defend friendlies against air while it has to deal with more than just air? To defend an AMS from other vehicles you need long range AV weapons that can reach vehicle render range AND AI weapons that can hold back the enemy.

If AMSs had a damned cloak then I wouldn't mind short range bursters. At least then air would be forced to get close to see where the AMS is or waste time shelling at random in hope of getting lucky.

GreyFrog · 2013-06-19, 12:51 AM

Chewy mate, this isnt a single player game. You have Outfits and squadmates for a reason.

Chewy · 2013-06-19, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by GreyFrog

Chewy mate, this isnt a single player game. You have Outfits and squadmates for a reason.

Yes, I know that and wouldn't be in an outfit if this was a SP game. But no outfit can keep vehicles alive while under fire for very long. Air isn't a worry if you have AA, yet air isn't the main threat to ground troops. It's ground troops and vehicles that you have to deal with.

Air comes fast, deals damage, and gets the hell out. As it should be. But if you have to deal with ground attacks as attackers then a skyguard can not last long enough to make a good defender for an AMS without being forced to sit 100M back in some hiding hole being useless against any ground threats. As well as being limited against air that comes from the skyguards blind spot thanks to the need of good cover from ground threats.

Im a squad leader in DVS and know about teamwork and the need of others. There isn't a day I play that Im not faced with the need of good teamwork to reach a goal. It is hard as hell to keep vehicles alive when you're against both air and infantry. Hell, Im the one that pulls AA without it being called for yet if I see it lacking or the call for armor is made. My main loadouts for MAX, lightning, sunderer, and MBT are AA focused. I know what it takes to deal with air and when to say air is going to fuck us.

If you can't deal with air when it can deal with you then it will kill you. With an AMS rendering as a vehicle and not having anyway to cloak it then you MUST have ways to fight at vehicle render range at all times that the AMS is under threat of air. If you don't then there is not a damn thing you can do to stop the AMS from being killed. No AMS, no infantry, no fight.

snafus · 2013-06-19, 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by Chewy

It's not just getting to the location. You not only have to survive the trip but you have to stay alive once you get there. A skyguard is lucky to just make the trip if the defenders are worth a damn and once you get close to anything with infantry then you have to worry about C4, rockets, and lock-ons while watching the sky. You can't watch the sky and look for ground threats at the same time.

It is piss easy for a flyer to get on location by going over everything, but any ground troop or vehicle needs to take paths. Paths take time, more time than air needs to ruin anything from vehicle render range. Then you have to even be at a base that lets you pull lightnings. If bursters can't defend an AMS at vehicle render range then how can they keep it safe from air? A lib at max height can do some damn good damage on an AMS now before having to go repair. And Im certain that lightnings are softer targets for a good lib gunner. It doesn't matter if that lib can't hurt infantry, it can kill the spawn and thus remove all infantry anyway.

How the hell is a skyguard suppose to stay live and defend friendlies against air while it has to deal with more than just air? To defend an AMS from other vehicles you need long range AV weapons that can reach vehicle render range AND AI weapons that can hold back the enemy.

If AMSs had a damned cloak then I wouldn't mind short range bursters. At least then air would be forced to get close to see where the AMS is or waste time shelling at random in hope of getting lucky.

If you have a skyguard up no lib will stick around to try and out DPS it most times. As enemy air will see him smoking after that duel and his number will be up. And if players are able to keep sundies up during assaults why is the prospect of having skyguards so out outrageous to you?

If an outfit can take the time to spawn and protect a sundy they can do the same thing with their sky guards. This game requires team work to be effective and the skyguard is just another tool for the team. They are incredibly fast and one of the more difficult vehicles to hit. Any competent driver will be able to keep it up and running with minimal effort.

And it gives aircraft a fair shake at engagements with being able to see what is raping us now from far away. The days of the invisible burster are thankfully coming to a close. They were broke, plain and simple. And that broken mechanic hurt the aviation side of the community hard. This change will help bring things in line that some balance can be found.

Dodgy Commando · 2013-06-19, 06:38 AM

Besides that argument is valid for Burster MAXes, they can't effectively defend themselves vs. ground threats. No difference there, and it hasn't been an issue until now. I don't see it being an issue later.

300m is pretty good, if an ESF can snipe an AMS effectively (out-DPS the repairers) at a long distance, that issue would've come up long ago. I'm sure Bursters can still deal with them. For Libs, pull a Skyguard, call some air support, something.

Shamrock · 2013-06-19, 07:04 AM

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

If they remove the ability to pull aa from ams sunderers then air will once again feast on infantry that will not be able to defend itself. I believe if the devs were to follow the OPs plan then again infantry would be easily farmed.

I understand that some people only want to fly airplanes. If your need is so great to fly then one of two things need to happen. You either become a better pilot or play a game that only features flying.

I watch some very good pilots on twitch tv. These guys can have incredible kill streaks and it is tough to be a pilot. To remove the barriers we have now would mean these great pilots would move about almost unchecked, killing everyone whenever they want to. Nerfing aa would make merely competent pilots into a2g killwhores.

So my vote on this is a resounding FUCK NO!!!

Amen brother, im weary of seeing constant threads from guys that play ESF 90% of the time wanting to "adjust the balance" of ground pounding infantry's primary means of defending our selves from being farmed by them.

The OP does have a point in that it is kind of ridiculous that the skyguard is currently a secondary option to a burster, I've certed it but haven't used it in months. Buff its damage output and double its resource cost

SolLeks · 2013-06-19, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Dodgy Commando

Besides that argument is valid for Burster MAXes, they can't effectively defend themselves vs. ground threats. No difference there, and it hasn't been an issue until now. I don't see it being an issue later.

300m is pretty good, if an ESF can snipe an AMS effectively (out-DPS the repairers) at a long distance, that issue would've come up long ago. I'm sure Bursters can still deal with them. For Libs, pull a Skyguard, call some air support, something.

To be honest, burster maxes can easily defend themselves from infantry, I have assaulted bases as one before. Its not as good as AI weapons, but its not bad at all.

snafus · 2013-06-19, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by SolLeks

To be honest, burster maxes can easily defend themselves from infantry, I have assaulted bases as one before. Its not as good as AI weapons, but its not bad at all.

Ya you can get about three infantry kills per magazine. But you need to be pretty accurate of course.

JohnnyRicardo · 2013-06-19, 06:24 PM

Cant wait to see how this actually turns out. If the end result is that infantry get farmed constantly I guess there will be some solid portion of raging and maybe even players leaving the game.

Obstruction · 2013-06-20, 12:25 AM

i think the main difference is that you can't stand inside a spawn shield with a skyguard.

i don't think this is a total game changer at all. flak from base turrets is unaffected, so we'll still get hit by potshots from the amp station 1000m out and skyguards using terrain cover.

however, in combination with the increase to MAX unit cost i think it will help a little, since the things that can pose this kind of long range threat are at least within a reasonably fair render.

and let's try to remember getting farmed is an active state on the part of the infantry units getting roflpwned.

kill you once, shame on me. kill you 5 times, shame on you.

JohnnyRicardo · 2013-06-20, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Obstruction

i think the main difference is that you can't stand inside a spawn shield with a skyguard.

i don't think this is a total game changer at all. flak from base turrets is unaffected, so we'll still get hit by potshots from the amp station 1000m out and skyguards using terrain cover.

however, in combination with the increase to MAX unit cost i think it will help a little, since the things that can pose this kind of long range threat are at least within a reasonably fair render.

and let's try to remember getting farmed is an active state on the part of the infantry units getting roflpwned.

kill you once, shame on me. kill you 5 times, shame on you.

Don't you worry. There will always be a way to get you one trick ponies out of the sky.

SolLeks · 2013-06-20, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by JohnnyRicardo

Don't you worry. There will always be a way to get you one trick ponies out of the sky.

So basicly you hate pilots...

FYI, Even if I am not in the sky, I will still farm you. Up until a month ago, I had more kills with a single rifle than my ESF, and now that has only changed since I am playing medic less and HA more.

You need to get over yourself. the changes are great for the game.

If you can't stand being killed by aircraft, why choose a game that has them?