The Good ole Balance Debate - Page 5

Rbstr · 2011-07-12, 06:01 PM

Malorn: (posting something for your reply to me ealier, skipping everything else)
Yeah, they've continually made it easier for noobs. Why is that not a valid strategy?
It's not simply because old players are ahead but because the number of things available to do has increased dramatically. There are many, many, more skills now than when I started. I still can't even build a single ship, a feature that's existed since before I started. Players have NOT homogenized to all specializations, they do what they want.

Not being initially able to compete at the top level and having to chose a specialty is simply not detrimental to the game. It's part of the game's atmosphere, an intended "Jesus, this galaxy will tear me to pieces and shit on my grave. I need to figure out what I'm going to do.". EVE is a long term game. If you go in expecting to be handed anything at all you're playing the wrong game.
If you insist it creates some kind of insurmountable gap you are simply wrong.

At the same time I don't insist that PS2 conforms to the exact specifications of EVE's system, which is rooted in a time-based RPG combat system where leveling is always a large part. Simply that it works in one implementation and could easily be organized to work well in PS2.

There is absolutely no reason that some "Enhanced armor" skill doesn't give you access to an armor tradeoff situation between mobility and protection. When you combine protection and a similar tradeoff on a weapon for close range and on and on, Yeah you'll have you'll have a 20% advantage at 20m range against noob that doesn't have the options. But the more important things is that, maybe, you have a 40% against some guy that made the opposite tradeoffs indoors, but would decimate you out doors.
And 1000% against the AV trooper that specialized in killing tanks instead of meatbags.
These advantages are not simply products of levels or time but of choices you make on the type of engagement you hope to prevail in.

**Malorn** · 2011-07-12, 06:04 PM

I still haven't heard any convincing reason on why the game should have even a 15-20% difference in power of players.

Bags · 2011-07-12, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

I still haven't heard any convincing reason on why the game should have even a 15-20% difference in power of players.

It's magic, I ain't gotta 'splain shit.

Lunarchild · 2011-07-12, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

I still haven't heard any convincing reason on why the game should have even a 15-20% difference in power of players.

Overall though, I have less problem with power added through leadership abilities. There will be outfits and squads available for newbies, with that power difference as well. That, however, would mean that a solo player is off worse than someone in a squad and an outfit.

Would still be a personal choice though

With the right tactics you should still be able to take them down!

Volw · 2011-07-12, 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Effective counterpoints are not misquotes.

I'm not going to argue the fact that options themselves are advantage - they are, but the options in your scenario are not the key things of consideration.

All the extra support certs a player has doesn't really matter until after the fight is over. In the end it was Rexo HA +implants vs Agile HA + no implants. Speed HA vs Armor HA. That has natural balance built into the gear. There is no 20% modifier to either player.

(implants are a separate discussion really, as I've already stated in two posts now) Extra options being advantage isn't the topic of the discussion nor was it the context of the dev quote that we are concerned about.

Options are advantage, but they aren't flat modifiers to a player's performance, which is the topic of the discussion.

And you still haven't answered the question as to why such flat modifiers are beneficial to the game.

What I'm trying to point out is that PlanetSide BR1 is not equal to BR25 and in any real combat scenario, even with equally skilled players, BR25 will almost always come out on top. I think we both agree with that statement.

Sure there's no item/skill saying +20% damage but it's fairly obvious BR25 has far more options available. There's no way to do it otherwise, unless removing BR altogether and have everyone start with the same gear.

I'm not saying flat modifiers are beneficial - but any upgrades even with trade-offs are easy to quantify and 20% doesn't sounds like a whole lot. To me it sounds like less than the example I've brought previously.

So to clarify - I do want trade-offs to be there. Yet gear upgrades will traditionally be more focused and a fairly 'all round' BR1 will get wiped if the specialised player is playing to his strengths.

So where I'm going with this - unlocks will have disadvantages but they will never be greater than advantages nor 100% equal. There will always be a better, more focused gear out there and BR1 player will always be worse off. After all, what would be the point of gaining BR if BR1 player would be as versatile as BR20.

End of the day more options = more flexibility = more power. PS2 bring in specialisation straight away so the disproportions between BR1 and BR25 in PS2 should be lower than they are in PS1.

Volw · 2011-07-12, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Redshift

ok put it this way, i could build a new char lvl 1, run to a tower lob a jammer at the first rexo i see shove a sweeper up his arse and blow him to bits, and that would be me being better than him, his lvl would not give him more of a chance, i could do exactly the same on my main char the only difference is i'd be able to repair AFTER the fight

Ok, so you've killed a player with more HP/AP than you have.

What exactly is the problem with doing the same in PS2, if the same person is packing ONLY 20% more AP than you do?

Also, if we assumed same skill level - then you 'should' wipe, as Sweeper close range takes (obviously) less TTK Agile than Rexo. All you did was disable his Pshield with the jammer...

So again. Please tell me how this is equal.

(Won't even go into how BR25 could already know about your presence before you knew about his via deployables or implants and welcome you with a nice burst of anything really as you open the door)

**Malorn** · 2011-07-12, 07:11 PM

Volw, i think you're preaching to the choir. We all know PS1 had problems, that's why PS2 isn't just a reskinning.

But from what infromation we have, they appear to have a power difference as part of cert advancement, which is time-based. The reason this thread exists is because we disagree that such a power difference should exist.

We're not claiming equality and any form of advancement will provide advantages over those who have not attained it, even if those advantages are just options.

What we are talking about is that they should not go beyond that and provide reaver specialists with "more durable" and "more maneuverable" reavers just because they specialize in reavers. If the SOE devs really mean they have the option to trade durability for speed and vice versa, then great, that's awesome. But if they are implying a straight bonus (which they cited 15-20% as a number to us), that' snot cool and has bad implications on the game which I've already described in great detail.

If its a misunderstanding it'll get cleared up in time. If it isn't I would like the developers to get the feedback that we don't like that and have sound reasons for not liking it. There is greater risk in assuming it is a misunderstanding and not providing that feedback. The devs lurk here becuase they want our feedback and I think this thread has a wealth of good discussion here for them.

Tlacatecatl · 2011-07-12, 07:19 PM

I think this a clash of game design philosophy. While FPS usually go for the pure tradeoff progression (like BFBC2 for example), MMOs always aim for some kind of power creep to give the player a feeling of becoming stronger for their time investment.

We now have a hybrid between those two. I think one important point here is that normal FPS don’t intend to bind the player for years. In BFBC2 I can unlock all tradeoff options in a short amount of time, after that I doesn’t matter if I am BR 25 or 50. But after the initial purchase of BFBC2 they don’t expect me to keep paying them. (DLC excluded) And after just 1,5 years the next installment of BF will be released. Or let’s say it this way and you can unlock most options in Planetside 2 within a short period of time, then the only thing that’s binds you to the game is the community and the permanence of the Territorial Control System. Don’t get me wrong I think that’s sufficient for a lot of players to stay and keep playing/paying (including myself), but I guess they want to give the players another motivation to stay. People just like it when they "level up" and get stronger.

So I guess it’s a balancing act. Should I alienate a part of my customer base with giving long time player a (small) advantage or shout I risk losing customers faster because they feel like they “archived” everything in the game.

I personally think the mild power creep with 20% power increase is a practicable solution. If that means I need 12 hits instead of 10 Hits to kill a player that spend way more time than me that’s fine with me. That’s something I can circumvent using my personal skills, especially in an open environment like Planetside, where you can always shovel in a few more people to balance things out or break the balance of a fight altogether. It is not like BFBC2 where there is always an equal number of players, meaning the balance is shifted anyway.

I also think the Eve System would be a good idea here. Let’s say it takes about a week to get to 15%-17% additional damage for my Lasher and the last 3-5% takes a month of training time to unlock. That would mean that I can catch up to a reasonable level pretty quick and can then decide if I want to maximize this weapon or if I should get to a reasonable level with something else (like my Reinforced Exosuit or something). With this simple skill system it would take years to maximize absolutely every skill, giving the veterans something to archive while letting the new players catch up in a reasonable time (at least for the equipment they prefer).

But of course this doesn’t disprove any of the arguments that where broad up here, but I think thats the reason why this system is planned for Planetside 2, and why I thinks it’s bearable. I just guess that SOE wants this kind of progression to attract more players and bind them to the game for a longer time, even if it’s making balancing the game harder. But until SOE says what there actually plans are it’s all a guessing game.

Volw · 2011-07-12, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Volw, i think you're preaching to the choir. We all know PS1 had problems, that's why PS2 isn't just a reskinning.

But from what infromation we have, they appear to have a power difference as part of cert advancement, which is time-based. The reason this thread exists is because we disagree that such a power difference should exist.

We're not claiming equality and any form of advancement will provide advantages over those who have not attained it, even if those advantages are just options.

What we are talking about is that they should not go beyond that and provide reaver specialists with "more durable" and "more maneuverable" reavers just because they specialize in reavers. If the SOE devs really mean they have the option to trade durability for speed and vice versa, then great, that's awesome. But if they are implying a straight bonus (which they cited 15-20% as a number to us), that' snot cool and has bad implications on the game which I've already described in great detail.

If its a misunderstanding it'll get cleared up in time. If it isn't I would like the developers to get the feedback that we don't like that and have sound reasons for not liking it. There is greater risk in assuming it is a misunderstanding and not providing that feedback. The devs lurk here becuase they want our feedback and I think this thread has a wealth of good discussion here for them.

Ah, I think we misunderstood each other.

You are going to by the '15%-20%' quote, I'm going by the one where they've explained rifles will have an upgrade where more damage will cause higher CoF (or lower RoF? can't find the quote) and I'm deducting, that a character going deep into the tree, while using his strengths will have 15%-20% advantage over the non-specced player.

I'm against numerical bonus (with exception of utility skills) as it's an FPS, after all and pure numerical bonuses are going to make it less diverse. Yet, I wouldn't mind very slight imbalances, say 20% more AP for 10% less speed etc against BR1 player.

Bags · 2011-07-12, 07:27 PM

@Tlacatecatl:

Thing is, you don't feel stronger when everyone else is becoming strong, too. You become stronger versus PVE elements, and PS has none.

Power creep in PSide will not result in the players feeling more powerful, but veterans feeling more powerful than noobs.

**Malorn** · 2011-07-12, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

@Tlacatecatl:

Thing is, you don't feel stronger when everyone else is becoming strong, too. You become stronger versus PVE elements, and PS has none.

Power creep in PSide will not result in the players feeling more powerful, but veterans feeling more powerful than noobs.

I need to work on my precision-posting skills. Well-stated.

Tlacatecatl · 2011-07-12, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

@Tlacatecatl:

Thing is, you don't feel stronger when everyone else is becoming strong, too. You become stronger versus PVE elements, and PS has none.

Power creep in PSide will not result in the players feeling more powerful, but veterans feeling more powerful than noobs.

It’s mainly a psychological aspect. The PVE enemies in other MMO also get stronger as you progress through the game. Sure you can travel back and one hit some low level monster but it doesn’t really matter. It’s not intended that you overpower the monster you are supposed to fight. One could say that the power progression in those MMOs is also merely an illusion to keep you interested. You train your skill and get a little bit stronger. Of course the other veteran you fight has probably skilled his weapon and armor to a comparable degree but just maybe you have the last 3-5% skill step he doesn’t have or he does play with gear he hasn’t skilled until now. It’s the same thing in Eve Online those last 5% hardly make a different in most fights, but you still have the feeling of progression.
Again it’s not my opinion that we absolutely need this form of power progress but I see the psychological appeal it offers.

Bags · 2011-07-12, 08:16 PM

No, actually the PVE elements in end game content don't get stronger as you get more gear. I don't know how it works in other MMOs, but as you geared up in WoW the content you were clearing does not get harder. You get more powerful in comparison.

Whether you were in greens or end game epics, Arthas had the same amount of health and damage and abilities.

Volw · 2011-07-12, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by Tlacatecatl

It’s mainly a psychological aspect. The PVE enemies in other MMO also get stronger as you progress through the game. Sure you can travel back and one hit some low level monster but it doesn’t really matter. It’s not intended that you overpower the monster you are supposed to fight. One could say that the power progression in those MMOs is also merely an illusion to keep you interested. You train your skill and get a little bit stronger. Of course the other veteran you fight has probably skilled his weapon and armor to a comparable degree but just maybe you have the last 3-5% skill step he doesn’t have or he does play with gear he hasn’t skilled until now. It’s the same thing in Eve Online those last 5% hardly make a different in most fights, but you still have the feeling of progression.
Again it’s not my opinion that we absolutely need this form of power progress but I see the psychological appeal it offers.

Agree with the psychological effect, the same (arguably a lesser stimuli) can be achieved by giving players visual awards. Badges etc.

I think the most extreme case is CoD, which allows players to grind levels, how many times over? To get a golden gun. Doesn't make much logical sense to do, yet people do it! Same with different badges in games, where people are willing to do absolutely useless things in order to get a pretty useless recognition.

Edit: Should L2Read. I meant psychological effect that's causing players to grind countless amount of hours to get an Epix, which is not necessary to complete the raid content.

Bags · 2011-07-12, 08:21 PM

There's nothing psychological about it; you have power creep in WoW related to PVE units

"No, actually the PVE elements in end game content don't get stronger as you get more gear. I don't know how it works in other MMOs, but as you geared up in WoW the content you were clearing does not get harder. You get more powerful in comparison.

Whether you were in greens or end game epics, Arthas had the same amount of health and damage and abilities. "