HA, what do we do with you?

[Rbstr]

This isn't intended to be a discussion of analogues to PS1's HA, but what you'd like to see as potential heavy weaponry in general.

Personally, I'd rather scrap the idea of them being up-close-and-personal monsters to a more LMG-based weapon. They would still offer more damage and more deaths-per-reload than a rifle, sustained fire would cause less loss in accuracy, provided the user has prepared.
They would have similar ranges to the standard rifles, but they would suffer from worse running-and-gunning penalties and poorer accuracy.
While the standard rifle is a bit of a finesse weapon, the heavy gun would be more of a blunt instrument. As it is currently. The idea is that these weapons would be great at suppressive fire, indoors and out. And while they would sacrifice some of the current indoors dominance for more general usability, they would remain a bit scary for a lone rifleman.

Even though that's a fairly large role change, not much about the weapon's current concepts need to change, except the jackhammer.
The MCG will change little, a larger(!) magazine might be in store.
The Lasher would need to be tightened up in the accuracy arena,
The Jackhammer would face the largest morph into a coil-gun that shoots buckshot to decent ranges instead of a sawed off shotgun with the spread of a claymore. The ROF would have to go up, but still shy of the lasher. Clipsize adjusted upwards based on the other factors so the kill-per-reload would be lowest, but still substantial.
All would suffer large recoil issues if not still and but recover very quickly if crouched.

Potential weapon upgrades, fewer than available for the rifle, because of the increased general lethality:
Bipods, (if prone exists, or grip if not). Decreases recoil problems significantly when prone (crouched for the grip)
Various scope-y type things
Short barrel systems - devastating to base accuracy (removes the ability for accurate long range bursts, basically), but greatly reduce run and gun penalty (to allow some of the indoors craziness back)
AP ammo barrel/refit - would deal substantial damage to lighter armored targets like maxes, buggies and aircraft, would make recoil problems worse (making it far less effective v. infantry up close), lower ROF, base accuracy remains the same...as does AI damage.

[Quovatis]

I'm not sure they've even decided on HA yet. With the class/cert tree you can upgrade a MA weapon to act like HA eventually. So remember the weapon will behave differently depending upon who uses it in PS2.

[Ranik Ortega]

Originally Posted by Rbstr

This isn't intended to be a discussion of analogues to PS1's HA, but what you'd like to see as potential heavy weaponry in general.

Personally, I'd rather scrap the idea of them being up-close-and-personal monsters to a more LMG-based weapon. They would still offer more damage and more deaths-per-reload than a rifle, sustained fire would cause less loss in accuracy, provided the user has prepared.
They would have similar ranges to the standard rifles, but they would suffer from worse running-and-gunning penalties and poorer accuracy.
While the standard rifle is a bit of a finesse weapon, the heavy gun would be more of a blunt instrument. As it is currently. The idea is that these weapons would be great at suppressive fire, indoors and out. And while they would sacrifice some of the current indoors dominance for more general usability, they would remain a bit scary for a lone rifleman.

Even though that's a fairly large role change, not much about the weapon's current concepts need to change, except the jackhammer.
The MCG will change little, a larger(!) magazine might be in store.
The Lasher would need to be tightened up in the accuracy arena,
The Jackhammer would face the largest morph into a coil-gun that shoots buckshot to decent ranges instead of a sawed off shotgun with the spread of a claymore. The ROF would have to go up, but still shy of the lasher. Clipsize adjusted upwards based on the other factors so the kill-per-reload would be lowest, but still substantial.
All would suffer large recoil issues if not still and but recover very quickly if crouched.

Potential weapon upgrades, fewer than available for the rifle, because of the increased general lethality:
Bipods, (if prone exists, or grip if not). Decreases recoil problems significantly when prone (crouched for the grip)
Various scope-y type things
Short barrel systems - devastating to base accuracy (removes the ability for accurate long range bursts, basically), but greatly reduce run and gun penalty (to allow some of the indoors craziness back)
AP ammo barrel/refit - would deal substantial damage to lighter armored targets like maxes, buggies and aircraft, would make recoil problems worse (making it far less effective v. infantry up close), lower ROF, base accuracy remains the same...as does AI damage.

I agree that HA would be better served as the mid-long range suppression weapons. I do not agree that the lasher or jackhammer are anywhere near this role. Even the chain gun has a terrible CoF for mid-long range fights. Maybe they should be re- imagined in a similar vein.

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Quovatis

I'm not sure they've even decided on HA yet. With the class/cert tree you can upgrade a MA weapon to act like HA eventually. So remember the weapon will behave differently depending upon who uses it in PS2.

Higby has mentioned Heavy Assault and chaingun multiple times.

And I disagree entirely. HA should stay close quarter beast. Stop trying to destroy my favorite playstyle, PSU!

Originally Posted by Ranik Ortega

I agree that HA would be better served as the mid-long range suppression weapons. I do not agree that the lasher or jackhammer are anywhere near this role. Even the chain gun has a terrible CoF for mid-long range fights. Maybe they should be re- imagined in a similar vein.

OHMYGOSH you might have to use medium assault outdoors! the horror!

I see no reason to mess with the current HA -> MA -> Sniper thing PS1 does. Your ideas just seem like change for the sake of change. Why morph the HA to fill the role MA fills?

[Traak]

I say keep the HA's but force them to use RExo.

You want more firepower, you trade off maneuverability. But having warping HA's dancing around like ballerinas on crack while firing the heaviest weapons just resulted in the HA weapons being nerfed.

And make RExo much slower to turn, strafe, and run. A RExo should not be able to prance around an AI max and take it down. You get more firepower, you sacrifice speed. The vehicular equivalent would be a 150mm, dual 75's or a Magrider cannon on a Thresher. Unbalanced.

Having the game set up to favor those with uber-computers by giving them the most maneuverable armor coupled with the hardest-hitting weapons is not conducive to balance.

[Ranik Ortega]

Originally Posted by Bags

Higby has mentioned Heavy Assault and chaingun multiple times.

And I disagree entirely. HA should stay close quarter beast. Stop trying to destroy my favorite playstyle, PSU!



OHMYGOSH you might have to use medium assault outdoors! the horror!

Do you ever pay attention to posts or just blaze on through and spout crap?

The entire point was that HA might be better served as heavy suppression weapons. That doesn't mean there isn't some new class that focuses on CQB and CQB ONLY. Hell the HA could have the option of switching between skirmish weapons and CQB weapons. Problem solved

Edit: Trakk I agree on the Rexo being slower

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Traak

I say keep the HA's but force them to use RExo.

You want more firepower, you trade off maneuverability. But having warping HA's dancing around like ballerinas on crack while firing the heaviest weapons just resulted in the HA weapons being nerfed.

And make RExo much slower to turn, strafe, and run. A RExo should not be able to prance around an AI max and take it down. You get more firepower, you sacrifice speed. The vehicular equivalent would be a 150mm, dual 75's or a Magrider cannon on a Thresher. Unbalanced.

Having the game set up to favor those with uber-computers by giving them the most maneuverable armor coupled with the hardest-hitting weapons is not conducive to balance.

Ignoring the fact that the only reason rexo was fast was because of the horrible extrapolation Planetside used, I think you're going to get your wish as I don't think lighter "classes" armor can use HA.

And I think your vehicle comparison is a wee bit of an exaggeration.

And it favors those with Uber computers? I get 30 fps in red alerts and yet I can still wipe the floor with 80% of the playerbase. lol

Originally Posted by Ranik Ortega

Do you ever pay attention to posts or just blaze on through and spout crap?

The entire point was that HA might be better served as heavy suppression weapons. That doesn't mean there isn't some new class that focuses on CQB and CQB ONLY

And my entire point is that this is pointless change for the sake of change. We already have MA.

I suggest reading people's posts before responding, but that's just me!

[Ranik Ortega]

Originally Posted by Bags

Ignoring the fact that the only reason rexo was fast was because of the horrible extrapolation Planetside used, I think you're going to get your wish as I don't think lighter "classes" armor can use HA.

And I think your vehicle comparison is a wee bit of an exaggeration.

And it favors those with Uber computers? I get 30 fps in red alerts and yet I can still wipe the floor with 80% of the playerbase. lol



And my entire point is that this is pointless change for the sake of change. We already have MA.

I suggest reading people's posts before responding, but that's just me!

You complained about your playstyle being changed when the game itself will be radically different. Shorter TTK and increased use of cover withstanding you expect the game to stay the same and complain about someone wanting heavy weapons to act like heavy weapons. so yeah

Edit: you probably didn't see my edit above but there isn't anything keeping HA from having multiple load outs. Suppression , CQB , AV etc etc Think of it as having HA with at least two empire specific weapons all their own. One for outdoors and one for indoors

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Ranik Ortega

You complained about your playstyle being changed when the game itself will be radically different. Shorter TTK and increased use of cover withstanding you expect the game to stay the same and complain about someone wanting heavy weapons to act like heavy weapons. so yeah

Heavy weapons in Planetside are CQC. Long range suppressing fire guns (read: MA) are not heavy weapons in the Planetside sense.

[Ranik Ortega]

Originally Posted by Bags

Heavy weapons in Planetside are CQC. Long range suppressing fire guns (read: MA) are not heavy weapons in the Planetside sense.

Heavy weapons are heavy weapons in all games other than planetside. You know like CoD / BF2 / Arma 2 ? Saying that's how it was in planetside isn't an argument its an excuse.

[MgFalcon]

Originally Posted by Bags

Heavy weapons in Planetside are CQC. Long range suppressing fire guns (read: MA) are not heavy weapons in the Planetside sense.

/agree

I'd always have my lasher our indoors rather than my pulsar... it just makes sense to do that kind of thing. And like hell if I'd try and take down a fleeing enemy with giant disco-balls that travel slower than a rexo can run. I'm whipping out my pulsar and Pew-pew that coward!

[Bags]

Originally Posted by Ranik Ortega

Heavy weapons are heavy weapons in all games other than planetside. You know like CoD / BF2 / Arma 2 ? Saying that's how it was in planetside isn't an argument its an excuse.

But those are not Planetside. I don't play those games for a reason.

[Ranik Ortega]

Originally Posted by MgFalcon

/agree

I'd always have my lasher our indoors rather than my pulsar... it just makes sense to do that kind of thing. And like hell if I'd try and take down a fleeing enemy with giant disco-balls that travel slower than a rexo can run. I'm whipping out my pulsar and Pew-pew that coward!

Comparing an empire rifle to current HA is like comparing an m4 to an AA12.

My entire point is there can be an empire rifle, HA suppression AND HA CQB

Originally Posted by Bags

But those are not Planetside. I don't play those games for a reason.

You are not the sum total of Planetsides audience

[Malorn]

Go back to the roots of the role that HA plays in the game. Heavy Assault. Its for the guys that breach a room or tower or whatever and need to get all Sam Jackson on them.

For that purpose the Jackhammer actually makes the most sense of the 3 because that's precisely what they use combat shotguns for. They're effective close-quarters and quickly degrade outside that. But for that purpose, they are great.

Other than a shotgun, the best thing that comes to mind for heavy assault is a bullpup submachinegun with a large capacity magazine, sort of like the p90. You dont' want something with a long barrel in close quarters fighting it'll just get in the way. I can see an MCG-like thing if it has a short barrel (like forearm length or shorter) since it would essentially function the same way.

But the point is you calibrate these weapons based on the amount of damage you want to do to a target at a specific range, and all of them need to taper off quickly. The Jackhammer tapers off because it has a wide spread and the further you go the fewer pellets hit the target. Can also have pellet damage degradation or a max range. The MCG also has a COF but it would need more bullet damage degradation. You could call it a side-effect of having a shorter barrel and thus less acceleration time and accuracy.

The VS has the most unusual HA. Something that fires somewhat rapidly and uses energy tech. They could go with something like the Maelstrom where you hold the beam on the target and the further the target the less damage the beam does. That would be easy to balance and definitely has a VS-ish feel to it...a plasma death ray beam. It would need a cooler effect of course. Something similar to Unreal Tournament's link gun. It could even have the dual-fire mode of the link gun in UT, thought that might lead to more lasher-like spam, but as long as there's no lashes people could dodge the orbs, but again that might extend the range of the weapon beyond what HA should be.

They dont' fit as medium or long range weapons, and it would be quite easy to calibrate the damage of them all.

Also, the main problem with the Jackhammer in PS1 was not the weapon concept itself - it was the fact that 3rd person existed. 3rd person allowed a jackhammer to completely negate the major drawback of the weapon, which was closing-distance. Clientside hit detection also exacerbated the problem since it was an instant-hit weapon. The triple-shot was also a poor design decision. Cool concept but not good for gameplay.

HA should be the close-range breaching weapons. They're a tradeoff between range and dps...high dps, short range. Its a reasonable tradeoff and won't be good in all situations. MCGs need to not have the range they had in PS1 since that deviated from the concept. Lasher spam down a hallway was also not good. These weapons should only be effective out to 35-40m or so (and that's little damage), with their optimal engagement range between 10-15m.

[Ranik Ortega]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Stuff

Read this

Originally Posted by Ranik

My entire point is there can be an empire rifle, HA suppression AND HA CQB