A Cloakers plea - Page 3

Talek Krell · 2011-07-21, 10:51 PM

As someone who flickers darklight a lot, I'd like to point out that I don't do it for "no apparent reason". I check darklight whenever I suspect a cloaker is about. And I always suspect that a cloaker is about. Always. THey're everywhere you see. Watching. Waiting. Waiting for an opportunity. A weakness. And then they get you! But they won't get ME no NO! Hehe! I'm always watching too! Always! They won't get me! HahahAHahehaheheehee

Vancha · 2011-07-22, 02:16 AM

A redesign of DL certainly wouldn't hurt. I like the darklight torch attachment mentioned in the other thread, but there's really so many ways they could tweak it...

Redshift · 2011-07-22, 03:13 AM

I spend about half of my time in an infil suit and i've honestly never had a problem being killed by people i suspected of tweeking settings, it's mostly a situation awarness problem, most of the time i kill another infil it's because they're running or surging in plain view

exLupo · 2011-07-22, 03:14 AM

A couple of things.

Barring straight up hacks, I don't think gamma fiddling or new video cards will be a problem. No modern shooter -besides- PS has had this issue. Maybe Tribes 2, dunno.

As far as cloaker exposure, it comes down to everyone who -isn't- invisible hating and/or fearing everyone who is. Play TF2 for a while. Everyone and their dog does what is called Spychecking. Basically meleeing, shooting or straight up unloading on every friendly unit that walks by to make sure it isn't a spy. Sucks for spies but if they don't then it's backstab city and engineer nests getting demolished left and right. PS's analogue is the paranoid DL flicker. If a fly farts, toggle on/off. Sucks for cloakers but, again, backstab city and destroyed assets. We've yet to hear about their cloaker balance plans but if they're too liberal, expect players to make a stink between launch and server shutdown.

Personally, I'm a fan of keeping invisible units as something to be feared. As a long time spy player and, before that, cloaker, it's a rough life. I feel that games tend to cater to the rest of the classes. TF2 has found a nice balance but the skill floor for spy is much higher than most classes. PS1, on the other hand, left infiltrating as a novelty; it was frairly impotent and without a real role specifically due to a combination of interlinks, DL and CR pings. And, no, putting on an infil suit for 30 seconds to drop an OS doesn't count as a "role".

Hopefully, PS2 cloakers are being designed not from a "hey, invisibility is cool" standpoint but, instead, from that of a specific role. Then the question of whether or not CR pings should reveal all units (and skills and implants to block or not and...) will not be one of "invisibility is bad" but whether or not the intentional role should be compromised. Until we know what dev wants cloakers to do with their time, we can't begin to really suss out what should and shouldn't be allowed. Barring gamma tweaks, of course.

Vancha · 2011-07-22, 05:01 AM

^
I will say, when 1 boomer could down a tube, I could end battles.

Sneaking into spawn rooms and taking down the tubes in a busy base was the best part of being a cloaker for me, but then they messed it up.

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing what they do with infiltrators in PS2 though. I imagine the class/skills system will allow SOE to do great things with them.

DxC · 2011-07-22, 06:14 AM

My Cloaking adventures did not start till I got CR5 and BR25 I rember loving the boomer in a busy corridor trick was good times 5+ kills if you pulled it off and dodged the plasma spam...

Personaly I realy want them to hopefully make Cloakers decent and less likely to cause a issue as the idea of sneaking around not being seen is fantastic Snipers beware!

for me Cloaking in a busy base was a real challenge I also rember Boomerman PS video loved it so many ideas from that alone

Taking your time in cloaking not just rushing in and spraying and praying often helped

**Malorn** · 2011-07-22, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by exLupo

A couple of things.

Barring straight up hacks, I don't think gamma fiddling or new video cards will be a problem. No modern shooter -besides- PS has had this issue. Maybe Tribes 2, dunno.

As far as cloaker exposure, it comes down to everyone who -isn't- invisible hating and/or fearing everyone who is. Play TF2 for a while. Everyone and their dog does what is called Spychecking. Basically meleeing, shooting or straight up unloading on every friendly unit that walks by to make sure it isn't a spy. Sucks for spies but if they don't then it's backstab city and engineer nests getting demolished left and right. PS's analogue is the paranoid DL flicker. If a fly farts, toggle on/off. Sucks for cloakers but, again, backstab city and destroyed assets. We've yet to hear about their cloaker balance plans but if they're too liberal, expect players to make a stink between launch and server shutdown.

Personally, I'm a fan of keeping invisible units as something to be feared. As a long time spy player and, before that, cloaker, it's a rough life. I feel that games tend to cater to the rest of the classes. TF2 has found a nice balance but the skill floor for spy is much higher than most classes. PS1, on the other hand, left infiltrating as a novelty; it was frairly impotent and without a real role specifically due to a combination of interlinks, DL and CR pings. And, no, putting on an infil suit for 30 seconds to drop an OS doesn't count as a "role".

Hopefully, PS2 cloakers are being designed not from a "hey, invisibility is cool" standpoint but, instead, from that of a specific role. Then the question of whether or not CR pings should reveal all units (and skills and implants to block or not and...) will not be one of "invisibility is bad" but whether or not the intentional role should be compromised. Until we know what dev wants cloakers to do with their time, we can't begin to really suss out what should and shouldn't be allowed. Barring gamma tweaks, of course.

This is pretty dead-on. With increased lethality of weapons in PS2 if cloakers aren't kept in check with sufficient tools then it'll run wild with cloaked ganking. I'd prefer to err on the side of "challenging" for a cloaker in PS2 for that reason.

RavenUSC3 · 2011-07-22, 08:39 AM

I used to only use the infiltrator in the early days of the game. I believe the purpose is for just that, infiltration, and scouting. I combined this with moving up the command ranks and early on NC on Emerald had real time communication about what was going on and where in the next base because I was already there. I was using it for scouting purposes though, and not in the middle of the fight.

As far as the reveal enemies goes, doesn't sensor shield take care of that? I use that along with surge if I do happen to load up infiltrator during a battle. I'll just surge through friendly or enemy with the combined speed of the infiltrator and surge. Rarely is anyone able to react quick enough to do anything about it when they see you, and they will, because you're flying through hallways. What generally happens is the 20-30 people that see you running through the base turn around to follow and you'll end up with 20-30 enemies backpedalling to the basement, allowing your guys to push through up top.

I still enjoy using the cloaker and when done right I think its really useful. I had become so good at sneaking around back in the day that even in rexo I can still find myself being able to sneak in to bases. As one poster said above, its all about patience, and most people don't have that. Someone else summed it up too, as an infiltrator, you need to learn to stay the hell out of the way, and really that goes for anyone. If a friendly is firing on some enemies up ahead and you jump in front of him, you should get shot.

Duriel · 2011-07-22, 09:18 AM

i look forward to the changes....I hope they keep it close to what it is...with skill a cloaker can change a battle if they are lacking in skill they are a nice fast kill...

just eliminate the cheaters(which im sure they will)

it would be cool to see cloaker suits boost hacking or something like that. while wearing the suit the hacking is faster or you can hack deeper into the system...something.

Huma · 2011-07-22, 02:59 PM

I've always loved cloaking. Nothing is more satisfying than jacking a vital AMS or flipping a hack at the last moment. I also realize that clockers are meant to die. I don't have a problem with Dark Light and I think it should stay the way it is. If you dont like getting flicked either don't give them a reason to flick DL. My only real hope is that they give us more tools. Especially for those of us that aren't concerned so much with killing as we are with controlling the battlefield.
As has been said before a truely dangerous cloaker is patient, resourceful, skilled at maneuvering, and sneaky. Learn to control your stealth bloom and learn your enemy. Then watch their tactic change as you take out the vital areas of their operation.

opticalshadow · 2011-07-22, 03:22 PM

they should just add a timer to re activating DL, it woudl stop the random sweeping as much.

Soothsayer · 2011-07-22, 03:35 PM

I'd say keep reveal enemies the way it is, if its being kept at all.

I'm hoping that with all they are saying about engies and hackers having all sorts of new tools that some will allow greater diversity in the utility that cloakers have.

I'd be open to DL changes, I'm not calling for them though.

A solution to the gamma problem that I used to hear people kicking around was not drawing cloakers past a certain range (something a little outside of the range of DL). This would work for a lot of the cheating problems, but would not be ideal for the ability to snipe cloakers. Maybe the sniper scope would notch up the draw distance.

As for friendly identification, I am all for this. The green name just isn't enough protection. I get that cloakers need to be careful around tank shells, but everybody has also seen tanks spam camping doors, doors that a cloaker needs to get inside of... Friendly snipers will pop a cloaker with little hesitation.

Cloakers can fill a valuable role in the battlefield ecosystem.

Mightymouser · 2011-07-22, 07:23 PM

Originally Posted by exLupo

Hopefully, PS2 cloakers are being designed not from a "hey, invisibility is cool" standpoint but, instead, from that of a specific role. Then the question of whether or not CR pings should reveal all units (and skills and implants to block or not and...) will not be one of "invisibility is bad" but whether or not the intentional role should be compromised. Until we know what dev wants cloakers to do with their time, we can't begin to really suss out what should and shouldn't be allowed. Barring gamma tweaks, of course.

I agree with everything you said, except this last bit. One of the great things about cloaking in PS (and most of the roles in PS) is that it is a fluid position which is up to the individual cloaker to decide. I have always been a 'infiltrator' of the 'sneak-in-and-blow-shit-up' mold; but that should by no means be the only playstyle available to cloakers. Many people disliked 'amp-tards' who ran around cloaked just to try to gank people, but they provided a useful counter to snipers at the same time. Two entirely different ends of the spectrum in terms of MO; yet both roles served the game...

I think the more openness they can leave for players to decide how to use the role, the better...

exLupo · 2011-07-23, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mightymouser

I think the more openness they can leave for players to decide how to use the role, the better...

From a design standpoint, players ultimately control the way the game is played. All I was meaning was the initial implementation. The only real time that devs have total control over the game is at the moment of launch and I'm hoping their decisions are rational (form fits purpose) instead of emotional (lolz, that's so cool!).

In time, their decisions will mostly be reactionary. Taking how the players play and tweaking/adding things to flow with or shape the game. Granted, almost every game hits a point where devs take what they've learned over the years and do a massive retool. At that point, you just have to hope it's with the players in mind (blizzard's cata changes) as opposed to marketing's desires (NGE).

@RavenUSC3 - The only issue with patience is opportunity cost. PS1 stealth+patience could be 5 min sneaking to the core of a bse, 3 min setting up enough boomers to 1-shot the gen and 30 seconds of blackout while everyone rushes in and undoes your 8 minutes of work. Regardless of how gratifying it may have been, those 30 seconds usually made little impact to a properly defended base. Cool when it helps but, even then, your team may be dicks about it with the "Gen drops are for noobs" trend that started a good time ago.

Conversely, Spy in TF2 does essentially the same thing with engineer nests. Spend a minute sneaking in, kill the guard, sap the nest and even if it's still just 30 seconds, that's easily a win unless your team is totally oblivious.

Time invested : Reward reaped is something that needs to be taken into account in the design phase.

@Huma: "If you dont like getting flicked either don't give them a reason to flick DL." - The only reason that a player needs to spycheck is simply because cloakers exist in game at all. Early on, if DL and cloakers remain unchanged (both highly unlikely), it will be a field day for the invisible but, in time, DL flick will be reflex, regardless of reason. Look again to TF2 and compare the new Valve servers to a regular veteran server. Those that don't know to spycheck fall to constant chains of backstabs and blown engi nests. Those that do really can keep spy players in check, no pun intended.

Ultimately, avoiding suspicion only takes you so far. When the enemy team treats every moment of every day as alert time, there's little you can do. General paranoia plus one tactic (tf2) or implant (ps1) could nullify any realistic impact from any number of stealth units. Each additional detection tool only exacerbates the issue, increasing time investments and decreasing rewards.

Part of me would like them to totally scrap the PS1 stealth system altogether and create something totally new.