My main concern about the class system - Page 2

Lunarchild · 2011-07-25, 08:26 AM

I really hope they'll leave the choice of armor in the game. So you can basically choose from a number of armors for each class. I'd guess HA would be rexo only, but for most others you could definitely choose between rexo and agile ^^

cashfoyogash · 2011-07-25, 08:31 AM

The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.

Lunarchild · 2011-07-25, 08:48 AM

Originally Posted by cashfoyogash

The only real way to keep people from mastering it all i think is to make it so there is so much to learn and it take so long to learn that its impossible. Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that. I think SOE took a close look at how EVE did their skill learning set up, we should be ok.

Which happens to be the exact thing I loathe about Eve. It takes six months to be effective at anything means you're not playing the game for six months. I personally hope it takes seconds, minutes or hours to learn the basic skill set for any class, definitely not more.

Warruz · 2011-07-25, 09:00 AM

Originally Posted by Lunarchild

Which happens to be the exact thing I loathe about Eve. It takes six months to be effective at anything means you're not playing the game for six months. I personally hope it takes seconds, minutes or hours to learn the basic skill set for any class, definitely not more.

I think their goal for such a system is to allow you to pick one class and learn it effortlessly and perhaps the starting certs for the other classes, however to get further down certs you will have to focus on one to keep it on track in terms of your BR. To get the others for other classes it will take more time.

Headrattle · 2011-07-25, 09:03 AM

The cert system was done rather well when we had the possibility to have fewer certs. The strength of the cert system is that while you could do more, you couldn't do everything at the same time. For example, you could be an HA and a AV trooper, but you wouldn't be able to drive most vehicles, and if you wanted to hack and be a medic, you would have to decrease the amount of ammo you could have by quite a bit. There was a balance there. But that is not all. You couldn't just say "Incoming max units!" and then set up your max killer setup unless you already had that cert.

From what they have said about the class system, you can be a Medic, or an AV guy or an HA guy or a driver. Just not all at the same time, and not as well as your main certs. So, while the driver who sets up an HA loadout may not be as good as the guy who specializes in AV, he is still an HA guy.

Essentially you have traded the concept that a guy could have Engi/HA/AV/Medic at the same time as long as he has the Level (though not as effective at it) with a guy who can change into any class without reguardless of level (though not as effective at it.) It seems strange to me. You get rid of the options of having some different abilities as long as you are high enough level and certs, and replace it with having all different abilities from level one just not at the same time. See what I am getting at here? Doesn't look good.

Of course, that is based upon an assumption. What he keeps talking about is how certs make one more effective at a class. NOT certs gaining more classes.

DviddLeff · 2011-07-25, 11:31 AM

That's the impression I get as well; its like having everything certed in PS, but you can become better at certain things by focusing on that role and spending your points/resources/time to specialise in it.

I also get the impression that many certs will have to be unlocked as you get more BR, so for example at BR5 you could get access to support certs, BR10 MAX, Infil and Agile armour, etc

CutterJohn · 2011-07-25, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by cashfoyogash

Much like EVE just to be a proficient miner it takes probably six months time to learn all those skills and then there is still many more mining skills to learn after that.

In 3 months you can mine 80-90% as good as someone with every mining skill maxed. Which takes MUCH longer.

From how they describe it, You'll be 75% as effective day one at a role in PS2. Maybe missing some sidegrade options that increase your versatility or weapon choices, but you can do the job.

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

I also get the impression that many certs will have to be unlocked as you get more BR, so for example at BR5 you could get access to support certs, BR10 MAX, Infil and Agile armour, etc

Sounds like it to me too. But I also got the impression that BR was going to not be much of a chokepoint at all. I imagine they are leaving it in just so you can't train an alt up much without playing it for a period of time.

Originally Posted by Headrattle

Essentially you have traded the concept that a guy could have Engi/HA/AV/Medic at the same time as long as he has the Level (though not as effective at it) with a guy who can change into any class without reguardless of level (though not as effective at it.) It seems strange to me. You get rid of the options of having some different abilities as long as you are high enough level and certs, and replace it with having all different abilities from level one just not at the same time. See what I am getting at here? Doesn't look good.

I quite like it. You can change classes, but you must go re equip at a terminal. Thats fine by me. PS balance was silly.

"You drive lots of vehicles, so we're going to make you suck when you step out of them"

"You like infantry, so you're going to be farmed by vehicles outside"

PS balance was making you dominate in one area so you could suck in another. It twisted the certs into a rock paper scissors game, where you got to 'win' only part of the time, due to greatly superior equipment options, and put you at a disadvantage the rest of the time.

Thats silly. Its bad balance. Every armor, every vehicle, every weapon should have a role. No single combination should dominate in every situation to the point where thats what everyone picks. There should be a reason to bring MA to a base fight over HA. A reason to bring AV out into the field over a tank.

TF2 has 9 different classes. Do teams always pick just one class? Is there one or two classes that are clearly the best in 95% of the situations? Nope. Everything has a job, and people pick all the classes. Some more than others, sure, and it definitely depends on the environment, but there is always a healthy representation due to usefulness and personal preference.

If classes are balanced, class representation will be balanced. It won't matter if you can switch, because everyone else is switching too. To different stuff, all the time. Your worry that people can switch is a direct result of PSs lack of balance. You assume they will switch to the rexo/av/ha/med/eng class, or the AI max class, because those were clearly dominant in fights indoors, because in PS1, they are totally imbalanced vs any other infantry choice.

Lonehunter · 2011-07-25, 12:11 PM

I remember Higby saying jump jets will only be available to a lightly armored class.

But to the OP, I think we can still be close to a jack of all trades. Like in one class you can pick up a ground vech, air, a specialized weapon tree, some support skills. But you won't be able to advance deep into every tree?

I'm fine with regular infantry being able to get med engi, but those advanced down those support trees will heal/repair much faster, adv med, stuff like that.

Bags · 2011-07-25, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

That's the impression I get as well; its like having everything certed in PS, but you can become better at certain things by focusing on that role and spending your points/resources/time to specialise in it.

Yeah definiately going to have to see how this plays out before passing judgment. At the moment I don't really like the sound of it. Hoping I can still do my med / eng / ha / av ^_^

Originally Posted by SKYeXile

I like your use of the my little pony avatar and the homosexuality it represents, i may just have to steal the use of it from you.

Have a bigger version of it:

1Shotwonder · 2011-07-25, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

I don't like class system at all. Their cert system in ps1 worked fine until we got half a million certs to spend.

I have to agree with this and its just how I feel at this time until I hear more info on it... period

DviddLeff · 2011-07-25, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Bags

Hoping I can still do my med / eng / ha / av ^_^

I'm hoping that you can't have it; with it you are too versatile and independent which is what the devs seem to be putting in the class system to restrict.

The point of this thread is that I am worried about PS2 being too restrictive, making you pick only one of those 4 roles in any life. I want a mid point; one where you can have a support tool (eg medic or engy), but also a particular weapon (eg HA or AV), while having a certain armour (eg Agile or Rexo).

Aractain · 2011-07-25, 01:54 PM

How does it feel Bags, to be the reason classes were designed?
Maybe the devs HATE YOU?!

Also awesome Pinky.

**Malorn** · 2011-07-25, 01:54 PM

I'm a bit torn myself. I like the idea and I see where they can go with it, but the free-form part of PS1 was a significant appeal.

It might end up being sort of like BFBC2 where you have to choose various accessories from a list. It coudl be things like REK, Medical, bank, CUD, etc are all on a shared list of options. So you have options on which one you want, but you have to pick one.

There's different ways they can go to preserve some of that free choice. Just like there may be multiple classes that can drive a buggy, or use MA.

I think if they hit the common styles of play (grunt medic, infil, heavy grunt, tank driver, pilot, etc) while putting in some reasonable restrictions it could turn out just fine.

The main problem with the PS1 cert system is that it didnt' scale and trended towards do-everything soldiers. The PS2 cert system as they describe it will scale very well, and they can always add in new classes at any time with different cert combinations from the existing cert tree.

So I see a lot of flexibility where they could make the vast majority of players happy and give us some flexibility in decisions with the new system. So I'm going to hold back the fears for now and wait til we see what it is like in beta.

Headrattle · 2011-07-25, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

I quite like it. You can change classes, but you must go re equip at a terminal. Thats fine by me. PS balance was silly.

"You drive lots of vehicles, so we're going to make you suck when you step out of them"

"You like infantry, so you're going to be farmed by vehicles outside"

PS balance was making you dominate in one area so you could suck in another. It twisted the certs into a rock paper scissors game, where you got to 'win' only part of the time, due to greatly superior equipment options, and put you at a disadvantage the rest of the time.

Not really. You had options. You couldn't be everything ever. You could have a vehicle specialty, and an infantry specialty. And you couldn't do the same thing at the same time and be really effective it. Being a driver and carrying around a glue gun meant that you couldn't carry around a lot of ammo or an extra weapon and you weren't usually in Rexo. You could still do that, provided you had the certs, and then you could do it only at an equipment station.

Thats silly. Its bad balance. Every armor, every vehicle, every weapon should have a role. No single combination should dominate in every situation to the point where thats what everyone picks. There should be a reason to bring MA to a base fight over HA. A reason to bring AV out into the field over a tank.

I will agree that HA dominates the situation now, but before we had so many certs HA wasn't so bad. You didn't have HA because you had othercerts that were just as important. Now you HAVE to have HA. But it wasn't always like that. But it is going to have to have Rock Paper Scissors type balance no matter what. Only now EVERYONE has access to whatever skill they need. All the time.

This isn't TF2, so that is a bad example. Classes in TF2 would not work well in a MMOFPS because in PS2 the types of battles will be more varied. Not the same essentially close range grudge fights that TF2 has.

If classes are balanced, class representation will be balanced. It won't matter if you can switch, because everyone else is switching too. To different stuff, all the time. Your worry that people can switch is a direct result of PSs lack of balance. You assume they will switch to the rexo/av/ha/med/eng class, or the AI max class, because those were clearly dominant in fights indoors, because in PS1, they are totally imbalanced vs any other infantry choice.

But it only became that way because they added the possibility of so many cert points. It wasn't always thus. What you are complaining about is only going to get worse. Is there a heavy indoor battle? Most everyone jumps to HA classes. Is it a heavy outdoor battle? Most everyone jumps to AV or long range AI classes. With classes the game of Rock Paper Scissors will get WORSE, not better.

**Malorn** · 2011-07-25, 03:32 PM

What you are complaining about is only going to get worse. Is there a heavy indoor battle? Most everyone jumps to HA classes. Is it a heavy outdoor battle? Most everyone jumps to AV or long range AI classes. With classes the game of Rock Paper Scissors will get WORSE, not better.

This is a really good point. If anyone can switch at any time they'll go with whatever the best class is for the situation. I'd like to hear how they plan on addressing that.

I don't think the old system is the correct solution, it would need some modification but the core ideas are sound. Of course at this point they've probably invested so much into the new design that completely revamping it may not be practical. It was one of the two big hightlights of the fanfaire...the new cert system & the resource/territory control changes. Going back on that would take a lot of convincing and would require some fundamental flaws that cannot be resolved by tweaking that system. I think that is quite unlikely. The new system is very likely going to stay, so the question is the nuances of it as opposed to the fundamentals.