The Issue of the 10%-20% Power Differentiation

[Higby]

We're going to have hundreds if not thousands of certs at launch. These will vary from certs that unlock new weapons, implants, vehicles, weapon/vehicle attachments and class skills to ones that allow for faster reloading, less cone of fire, larger ammo capacity, and yes, additional damage. When we say overall 20% increase in power we're talking holistically, not necessarily "each of your bullets do 20% more damage! a winner is you!".

The spirit of the PS2 cert system is very much based around the PS1 paradigm of advancement by addition of situational flexibility and overall breadth of gameplay options. A good fps player playing light assault with minimal certs will always kick the shit out of a bad fps player playing light assault with a lot of certs.

Edit: MasterChief096 - I'm definitely not trying to bust up your thread by stating any of this, it's a great poll and I appreciate seeing everyone's point of view. I just want everyone to understand what our goals with the cert tree and power growth actually are. Carry on!

[krnasaur]

honestly, 20% over years is so little, is it really worth the arguement?

IE: a level 80 WOW player is only 20% better than a level 2.

[Crazyduckling]

Although I have not read through this thread, I don't see a problem. I would like some advancement for my character, and I don't think that 20% is a big deal. Fighting in a persistent world is cool, but I would like to see personal benefits as well.

In the end, the game still comes down to skill.

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by exLupo

And that's why this will always be divisive. SOE is probably doing this to both attract the traditional "mmo" fan who is accustomed to direct stat progression and to separate their product from the BF3s of the world.

The question of "Why do people with more practice need more power?" will always be asked. As it stands, that's how the game is going to end up. As players, it's up to us providing feedback to help dev temper the numbers along the way.

I think if lv40 had suddenly unlocked 5% better weapons players would have wept/raged, Auraxis would have exploded, and the servers would have cracked in two. BFR 9000. However, since the gap is in from the start, I think it'l work out ok in PS2. The community, new players at least, will grow up knowing nothing better and, hopefully, the returning PS1 vets will accept it as well.

There will always be a segment that want it banished but not so much that they stop killing each for that next yard of land.

Traditional MMO fans that are used to stat increases are traditional MMORPG fans. MMO can take any suffix, RPG, FPS, RTS, etc. It is not a traditional part of MMOFPSes to have stat increases. This is in large due to the fact there aren't really any MMOFPS games out there. So in my opinion, its up to SOE to decide now with this game how the standards of the MMOFPS genre are going to be set, and I believe that they should be set by not offering raw stat increases.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by krnasaur

honestly, 20% over years is so little, is it really worth the arguement?

IE: a level 80 WOW player is only 20% better than a level 2.

I'd say a level 80 wow player is about 200,000% better than a level 2.

[Snow]

Originally Posted by krnasaur

honestly, 20% over years is so little, is it really worth the arguement?

IE: a level 80 WOW player is only 20% better than a level 2.

What would be a more suitable percentage increase in your opinion?

40%?
80%?
100%?
Instagib?

How can a new player expect to compete and advance in a pure PvP game where veterans are so powerful?

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by Higby

We're going to have hundreds if not thousands of certs at launch. These will vary from certs that unlock new weapons, implants, vehicles, weapon/vehicle attachments and class skills to ones that allow for faster reloading, less cone of fire, larger ammo capacity, and yes, additional damage. When we say overall 20% increase in power we're talking holistically, not necessarily "each of your bullets do 20% more damage! a winner is you!".

The spirit of the PS2 cert system is very much based around the PS1 paradigm of advancement by addition of situational flexibility and overall breadth of gameplay options. A good fps player playing light assault with minimal certs will always kick the shit out of a bad fps player playing light assault with a lot of certs.

Well I must admit I'm pretty impressed at how fast an official response to thread actually arrived.

Can you elaborate more on what you mean by it being holistic? From what I understand you mean that the potential 20% increase is going to be spread out between the various stats? Players won't be able to solely increase damage by 20%, but rather keep unlocking certs (in the form of modifications/implants/whatever) that upgrade a weapon or vehicle base stats by slight amounts. So an example would be a veteran with maxed out MA certifications might have a 20% advantage over a new player, but its going to be something like 3% damage difference, maybe 6% ROF difference, 4% accuracy difference, 7% clip size difference?

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

So basically what I gathered from this is that you are in favor of power advancement for veterans via unlocks, simply because you are in favor of it? You're not for it for any particular reason other than you don't think its a bad idea?

Basically the argument you are making is that if a veteran unlocks more powerful rockets for his reaver, as well as something that increases his reavers speed or maneuverability, he has to choose which one to take with no penalty for either. If he chooses the more powerful rockets he is NOT choosing the increased maneuverability thus his reaver will be vulnerable to the guys who did choose the maneuverability?

This makes complete sense and is a good point, I agree. I can see where you are coming from here. But this method of power progression only works when veterans are fighting other veterans who have been given the same options. A new player who is flying a reaver will not have unlocked the more powerful rockets or the increased speed/maneuverability, and thus will be at a huge disadvantage to a veteran who has. This is where the problem is with me. I would rather, as a veteran, take the more powerful rockets and choose to lose a little speed/maneuverability or perhaps armor, but have the benefit of being able to dish out more damage.

Why is 100% balance such a bad thing to aim for? Obviously no game has ever achieved 100% balance, nor is it likely for any game to ever achieve this. Opinions vary too much and someone will always be displeased with how something works.

Your post says that infantry can specialize in protecting themselves from vehicles, but its the same flaw, only veteran infantry players will have access to all things that keep them protected from being farmed by vehicles. New players would still be running around out in the open getting farmed by veteran infantry players with raw power upgrades that they didn't have to sacrifice anything for.

With the method I've mentioned, a veteran can still have an advantage over a new player in close combat, if he's upgraded his gun to do less damage but have more bullets in a clip and have a higher ROF. Its all up to the player and how he feels the need to play the game.

I don't see what I proposed as destroying what the specialization tree can create, I see it as adding to it immensely.

Originally Posted by Sirisian

You're assuming new players would be scared away before being able to specialize I'm assuming? I agree that is scary proposition, but in the long term anyone sticking around would realize they'd be on par with anyone else after a while with the same opportunities.

I basically said that's a very real thing that could happen where a new player that just logs in for the first time might find their character unspecialized. It's kind of something they'd expect that would go away as the begin playing.

I'm seeing the cert system as a huge trade-off between many epic choices. So an infantry could just as easily be awesome at destroying tanks as anything else in the game could specialize to kill something else. The idea being though that I hope there are so many choices that there is no best. Like I said in IRC a few days ago I want someone to do something and go "oh sweet. Good thing I have X." then die another time and go "oh man I wish I had Y I could have used it".

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by Crazyduckling

Although I have not read through this thread, I don't see a problem. I would like some advancement for my character, and I don't think that 20% is a big deal. Fighting in a persistent world is cool, but I would like to see personal benefits as well.

In the end, the game still comes down to skill.

Yeah man I never once stated that we should remove player advancement. Merely suggested that it should not be in the form of raw power.

Originally Posted by Sirisian

I basically said that's a very real thing that could happen where a new player that just logs in for the first time might find their character unspecialized. It's kind of something they'd expect that would go away as the begin playing.

I'm seeing the cert system as a huge trade-off between many epic choices. So an infantry could just as easily be awesome at destroying tanks as anything else in the game could specialize to kill something else. The idea being though that I hope there are so many choices that there is no best. Like I said in IRC a few days ago I want someone to do something and go "oh sweet. Good thing I have X." then die another time and go "oh man I wish I had Y I could have used it".

I feel ya, I just happen to think that those scenarios at the end of your post can still happen even without power upgrades.

I mean a guy can sacrifice reaver armor/damage for speed/maneuverability, and end up killing a high damage dealing/armored reaver due to this, and be like "woot, I'm glad I have this agile reaver!" Then that same guy can go and try and kill a heavily armored tank with its weak rockets. The tank might either drive back to where its close to its empire's AA or just escape altogether and the guy might say, "Geez I wish my reaver had more damage/armor so I could've followed that tank a bit longer and got the kill".

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

Can you elaborate more on what you mean by it being holistic?

Holistic: relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts


I.e. 20% total improvement, after adding everything up.

[Higby]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

From what I understand you mean that the potential 20% increase is going to be spread out between the various stats? Players won't be able to solely increase damage by 20%, but rather keep unlocking certs (in the form of modifications/implants/whatever) that upgrade a weapon or vehicle base stats by slight amounts. So an example would be a veteran with maxed out MA certifications might have a 20% advantage over a new player, but its going to be something like 3% damage difference, maybe 6% ROF difference, 4% accuracy difference, 7% clip size difference?

Correct. We definitely are relying on tradeoffs more than anything else. Most of our weapons for a class are "sidegrades" rather than upgrades, but there are upgrades here and there that essentially follow the model you suggest. We also unlock things like weapon attachments such as a scope or flash suppressor would be part of what we use to calculate that 20% advantage, although exactly how some of those are calculated gets a bit tricky.

[Higby]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Holistic: relating to or concerned with wholes or with complete systems rather than with the analysis of, treatment of, or dissection into parts

Also, medical certs will be replaced with using various roots, meditation and acupuncture to cure combat wounds.

[MasterChief096]

Originally Posted by Higby

Correct. We definitely are relying on tradeoffs more than anything else. Most of our weapons for a class are "sidegrades" rather than upgrades, but there are upgrades here and there that essentially follow the model you suggest. We also unlock things like weapon attachments such as a scope or flash suppressor would be part of what we use to calculate that 20% advantage, although exactly how some of those are calculated gets a bit tricky.

Well in this sense I'm not as against it as I once was, but altogether the true PlanetSide player in me will never support even a 0.5% power advantage. Obviously I will be playing PlanetSide 2 even with power upgrades, so long as they don't become game-breaking. I guess I'll calm down a bit until you guys release more detailed information or we find out in beta and how it all works out in actual gameplay.

Also, Higby, another huge concern is if a player can achieve 20% advantage at sometime, how much MORE of a percentage will be added to that if that player is in an outfit that also specializes in that individual's playstyle and unlocks even MORE certs and what not for that players weapon's/vehicle's? Or is the 20% calculation made from both player advancement as an individual as well as outfit advancement combined?

[Tatwi]

Is this necessary for the next installment as it will appeal to a wider audience?

If anyone believes that making some player's NUMBERS more powerful than other player's NUMBERS in a point and shoot combat game is going to appeal to MMORPG gamers than their freakin' nuts, because "combat balance" in MMORPG PvP is like the holy grail of game development.

What's more likely is what Ender said, "it would completely discourage new players from entering the game", while also alienating those who do try it out, for the simple fact that MasterChief096 shared with us, "A veteran should be better because he's a veteran, he has play time experience, he's developed skill and tactics with his weapons, vehicles, and outfit. He knows the game better and thus has a personal advantage over a new player". Adding player power in the form of bigger numbers will end up making Planetside 2 appeal to even fewer people than Planetside did, because folks just aren't going to pay a monthly subscription fee to allow others to mop the floor with them - especially MMORPG players.

I am absolutely all for character customization, community building gameplay (customizable shared "housing", economic PvP, and other things that are just there for the fun of it), and guild level specialization, but I think it makes sense to follow the Planetside approach of having those customizations effect things the player can do, rather than increase the player's damage dealing numbers.

Really, when you consider the logic that MasterChief096 imparted upon us, if anyone should be getting a boost in their numbers it should be the new players, not the vets! That's what they do in golf (to my understanding), because all those old golfers by rights should be way better than the new guy any way, so why not give the new guy a "handicap"?

When it comes to "realism" aspects, like the handling of the PhysX enabled vehicles, I don't see a problem adjusting those numbers, but again it feels illogical that the more experienced "veteran players" should even *need* to get bonuses to handling. I mean, wouldn't they have already been flying with some degree of success, despite the piss poor handling numbers they had when they started out? If not, are those people really going to get much better even with a "handicap"? So again, it seems more sensible to give the new players a "handicap" until they get used to the mechanics than it does to make something that vets learned how to master even easier for them to... continue to already master...

That said, adding bonuses to vehicle numbers like booster burn time, turn radius, and other things that pilots actually have available to them as modifications on real life aircraft would make sense for a game like Planetside, because knowing WHEN to use those modifications would always trump simply having speced for them in your cert tree.

This issue is going to be the biggest balancing act of the game, so there's definitely a lot to talk about here. I've enjoyed reading people's post!

[Higby]

Originally Posted by MasterChief096

Also, Higby, another huge concern is if a player can achieve 20% advantage at sometime, how much MORE of a percentage will be added to that if that player is in an outfit that also specializes in that individual's playstyle and unlocks even MORE certs and what not for that players weapon's/vehicle's? Or is the 20% calculation made from both player advancement as an individual as well as outfit advancement combined?

The goal is for the 20% to encompass everything. By everything I mean: "everything" everything. We're really paper-rock-scissors too, even if you had a 20% damage boost, hell a 100% damage boost, your assault rifle isn't going to kill a base totally un-certed tank, and if you had a 100% health increase that tank would still kill you pretty damn fast.

As for new players, Planetside 1 despite being "balanced" and "fair" to new players still is next to impossible for people to succeed at day 1. Theres way more than just veteran power growth that makes a game difficult for new players, knowing maps, battle flows, knowing how and when to fight, learning what different enemy types are capable of, etc. is by far a bigger barrier in a game like planetside than weapon damage for new players. I know lots of experienced FPS players who go 1:20 their first few sessions of planetside and I'm sure you all do too, right?