Dual-Wielding

[2coolforu]

Originally Posted by XPquant

Your seriously suggesting it is not within the devs ability to refine this concept down to balance? It is beyond the capability of human engineering to have a game simulation of akimbo weapons that isn't broken?

I've never seen a game balance akimbo weaponry while retaining the ability to use a single or pair of the weapons, one route is always more effective for the weapon at hand which totally defeats the extra complexity added by having the ability to duel wield. There is also such a thing as a games 'Tone', duel wielding IMHO is not in Planetside's tone. It is more fast-paced, bullet spraying and unrealistic when Planetside is more of a realistic and tactical game. It may have spacemen and laser guns but you can't sprint around and hit people with pinpoint accuracy, bullets have a degree of simulation and the reason people take 20 hits to die and everyone is in exo-suits is because it's thousands of years in the future. It's not like CoD or TF2 where the universe makes no attempt to explain why the current state is, it's just accepted that the laws are different whereas Planetside provides a degree of explanation.

You don't respawn because its a game, you respawn because it's an Alien planet with some method of matter replication and a core which is effectively a giant hard-disk storing data. You take 20 bullets because you are wearing a suit made of futuristic composites (which is pretty realistic, modern exo-suits are being made already), you can't run and gun because this reduces your accuracy, the game has some degree of realism and holding two pistols does not fit into the whole 'Crouch, aim accurately and stay in cover' aesthetic. Duel wielding is in fact total unrealism, it never happens in real life, the only people you would see even attempting it are people dossing at the firing range or Libyan rebels (in between shooting at the sky). It has simply no appeal, the value of the increased firepower is tiny in comparison to the total accuracy lost.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by XPquant

Your seriously suggesting it is not within the devs ability to refine this concept down to balance? It is beyond the capability of human engineering to have a game simulation of akimbo weapons that isn't broken?

Welcome to my world. You just kind of have to overlook some posts for what they are. Incoherent rambling. However, he has two main points it seems that are on-topic:

Originally Posted by 2coolforu

With a pistol the range at which you use them is so short that accuracy was irrelevant from the start, therefore a 100% increase in DPS is vastly better than the 50% decrease in accuracy or 100% decrease in accuracy.

Interesting assumption. Pistol is a short range weapon where accuracy is important and that having two immediately means twice as much damage with the same rate of fire (same DPS each). What if that isn't the case. This was mentioned before. Imagine holding two pistols each with separate reticules. When you press the left mouse button the left one fires and reticule is increased. The right reticule increases only slightly. Now if you fire the right one it fires and does the same thing. The reticule bloom (accuracy change you described is larger). Now imagine the fire rate is only 60% of the original guns. This is essentially artificial modifiers used in balancing. Suddenly when you press 1 and 2 on your keyboard and unholster 2 pistols you have essentially separate reticules that affect one another a little bit. There is a slight advantage with a slighly faster ROF and longer clip but you suffer accuracy problems. You took this choice in light of many other choices you could have used. For instance putting a grenade in a holster might be seen as far more advantageous. Or as someone else mentioned holding a knife on one hand with a pistol. (Which is pretty hardcore).

You should notice that the amount of variables to play with for balancing are broad. You can even modify the base accuracy or reload times among other things. If a player is dual wielding they might holster a pistol to make a 30 meter shot and pull out dual pistols for 20 meter encounters. (Imagine a medic's rifle slot is taken with a rifle rifle sized medic tool as explained the interviews). This increase in choices makes battles more unpredictable and also increases the level of skill in combat.

Originally Posted by 2coolforu

So BALANCE isn't a major component of whether something should be in a game or not?

Indeed it should be an important part; however, it's important to keep and open mind when it comes to balancing. As I've shown there are many ways to balance weapons by themselves and when used together. The combinations can also be balanced by looking specifically at certain combinations of items using a matrix comparing each item to every other item and applying modifiers based on their combined use.

Originally Posted by 2coolforu

There is also such a thing as a games 'Tone', duel wielding IMHO is not in Planetside's tone. It is more fast-paced, bullet spraying and unrealistic when Planetside is more of a realistic and tactical game.

So akimbo makes the system a bullet spray system. It doesn't need to be that way. A big part of PS1 was controlling the bloom of rifles and other weapons. An akimbo system doesn't get rid of this. Also as explained modifiers can help to negate the ability to "spray" altogether.

Personally I think designing the game so that most items can be used in a dual system would greatly increase the choices people have. On the other hand some things seem interesting. Imagine having two grenade holsters and you were to equip two grenades at a time one on both hands. Those kinds of combinations might be difficult to balance. (As would dual snipers among other things that would be a no go).

[Malorn]

I'll give you two good reasons why it shouldn't be there.

1) Immersiveness

Pistols aren't one-handed weapons.

Have you ever shot a pistol before? If not, go to a range and fire a .357 and see how well you can stabilize the aim and handle the recoil one-handed. A handgun does not mean it is intended for use with a single hand and you use two hands to stabilize the weapon so on repeated shots you have accuracy. Any form of single-handed pistol in a game should have, at the least, significant accuracy penalties, especially for the 2nd, 3rd, etc shot. The first shot would have less, but its a lot easier to get a snap shot with two hands on the pistol than one.

Having dual wielding is a negative mark to me for immersiveness because it isn't practical. It's completely ficticious. While there are cases when you can use them one-handed, unless you absolutely must use them one-handed it isn't practical.


2) Gameplay Tradeoffs

There are practical reasons to use a pistol vs other weapons, but switching weapons or having to switch weapons is a tradeoff. Using a repair tool or a healing-gun-thing is a decision. You chose to equip that item and use it with the consequence of not being able to defend yourself while using it. The option to dual wield such things negates the consequence or risk in using the device. It also opens up other possible balance issues, like self healing while running around with a scat-pistol.

Immersion and Tradeoffs - both take a hit with dual wielding.

[Zulthus]

Sigh, why am I making another post in this thread...


Not that I really care anymore, but DWing has nothing to do with "immersiveness " in a game like Planetside. Maybe it isn't realistic, sure. Since when is this kind of game supposed to have realism? It's supposed to be fun, and maybe some people will find DWing fun.

Gameplay tradeoffs - who gives a shit. If someone wants to use a DWed gun over something more effective, more power to them.

Having dual wielding is a negative mark to me for immersiveness because it isn't practical. It's completely ficticious. While there are cases when you can use them one-handed, unless you absolutely must use them one-handed it isn't practical.

This means that the gravity defying Magrider with it's energy rail cannon are a negative mark for you? It's completely ficticious. Hell, Planetside should be a negative mark for you. It's completely ficticious.

[Malorn]

There's a difference between creative imagination and absurdity. Being someone in the technology industry, I like to think things like Fusion power and hover-tanks will one day be a reality that offers real benefits and has practical applications. Dual wielding pistols is neither.

Dual wielding has no benefits. If you want more firepower, you make it automatic. If you want to fire more bullets before reloading, you get a bigger magazine. At no point does maintaining two pistols become a more effective option.

It's purely an unrealistic, impractical thing that looks-good in movies and to waste my time responding to forums about it.

[Brusi]

I've been staying out of this thread, cause it's stupid (and the title reminds me of porno)... but i just gotta have a go at trolling you too, Malorn.

Dual wielding has no benefits.

What if you wanna shoot two different guys at exactly the same time? eh, smart guy?


besides...



even cheech marin looks cool dual-weilding...

[Draep]

Originally Posted by Brusi

I've been staying out of this thread, cause it's stupid (and the title reminds me of porno)... but i just gotta have a go at trolling you too, Malorn.

What if you wanna shoot two different guys at exactly the same time? eh, smart guy?

This guy actually has a point. Why did Seung-Hui Cho shoot up VTech with akimbo pistols? Because he wanted to hit multiple targets at once. They were small caliber, easy to handle in one hand and the inaccuracy downside due to ambidexterity didn't matter because he was firing at mostly stationary crowds at close range.

Most games with akimbo give you one recticle for two pistols, which is inbalanced because it doubles your rate of fire at the cost of accuracy which is irrelevant, a point brought up earlier. If you had a recticle for each gun however, you have all the upsides and all the downsides, it would just be impossible to implement.

[sylphaen]

The key is to just make you look cool and make you feel like you own. Stats-wise it could be made just the same as your standard rifle:

Same DPS as standard rifle
+
Same accuracy as standard rifle
+
Same rate of fire as standard rifle
=
TR prestige weapon

I don't see the problem ?
--> shop item for next year

Edit: Ok, the range/damage over distance would need to be adjusted. But it's ok ! It's mainly to look cool and it will bring money to sony !

Myself, I wouldnt mind playing a medic avatar with an Ivory plated handgun.

[Hamma]

Dual Wielding is silly imo, has no place in the game just on principal.

[2coolforu]

Originally Posted by Draep

This guy actually has a point. Why did Seung-Hui Cho shoot up VTech with akimbo pistols? Because he wanted to hit multiple targets at once. They were small caliber, easy to handle in one hand and the inaccuracy downside due to ambidexterity didn't matter because he was firing at mostly stationary crowds at close range.

Most games with akimbo give you one recticle for two pistols, which is inbalanced because it doubles your rate of fire at the cost of accuracy which is irrelevant, a point brought up earlier. If you had a recticle for each gun however, you have all the upsides and all the downsides, it would just be impossible to implement.

He shot unarmed kids and had no formal weapons training...

Even then, his posing picture he sent to the news had him holding both guns, I don't know if he actually walked around like that. There's a big difference between some asshole walking around with two guns shooting unarmed, unsuspecting friends and colleagues in a confined area then a soldier engaging an armed, trained and suspecting enemy combatant whose also underwent proper training.

*Edit* He didn't use both weapons at once, he used his Glock 19 and fired 170 shots. It was also a pretty disgusting event to read about.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Draep

Most games with akimbo give you one recticle for two pistols, which is inbalanced because it doubles your rate of fire at the cost of accuracy which is irrelevant, a point brought up earlier. If you had a recticle for each gun however, you have all the upsides and all the downsides, it would just be impossible to implement.

The reticules just point at the same spot in the center of the screen. How did you imagine a dual reticule system working? Two mice?

Originally Posted by Malorn

There are practical reasons to use a pistol vs other weapons, but switching weapons or having to switch weapons is a tradeoff. Using a repair tool or a healing-gun-thing is a decision. You chose to equip that item and use it with the consequence of not being able to defend yourself while using it. The option to dual wield such things negates the consequence or risk in using the device. It also opens up other possible balance issues, like self healing while running around with a scat-pistol.

Exactly. The whole system of using holsters is the trade-off. You have a trade-off while holding a grenade in one hand and a pistol in the other compared to say an HA gun. You're just limiting the trade-offs to a select few when the whole system could allow a lot more variation.

Indeed, self-healing would need to be handled. Can a medic even do it? If so does it require both hands to use that mode? Those are the kinds of things that can be balanced and would then be a trade-off. When you hold a med app in one holster and a pistol in the other you're already performing a trade-off by not choosing another holster item.

[Malorn]

Shooting two targets at the same time, as Sirisian states would require two reticules, not to mention it is extremely hard to do simultanteous shots and what people actually do is alternate between using guns in one hand vs another.

And still, a single gun does the job better.

Just look at what this guy can do with a single gun.

Don't need to dual wield - you just need skill.

He shoots faster than the framerate of the camera.

[Tikuto]

Duel wielding and shooting barrelled weapons is actually really fucking difficult. You only see it in fantasy.

Let's not have it in PlanetSide2.

[Hmr85]

Way to dig up a thread from 2011... I agree, no dual wielding.

[Tamas]

Yes, but accuracy is reduced by 90%. Enjoy hitting nothing.