Science vs Religion - Page 10

Firefly · 2011-10-08, 12:33 PM

To Bin Laden, it was. His religious views on infidels in the Holy Land drove him to wage jihad against the United States and its allies, indeed anyone who supported them. I count four religious-based terms, which I've bold-texted for you.

We may view them as political terms, but religion and politics often go hand-in-hand with religious extremists. Bin Laden struck at political and economic targets, but religion was his prime motivator. Secondary to that came politics.

MasterChief096 · 2011-10-08, 02:17 PM

To make a claim that religion does not belong in politics is very, very dumb. Over 90% of the world is religious in one way or the other. That means approximately 5.5-6 billion people have some sort of religious view (other than atheism or agnosticism of course). That is a large amount of people, this makes it impossible to have politics completely free of religious influence. Atheists and agnostics are a small percentage in the world now. There are around 800 million atheists and agnostics, but that is still a small number in relation to everyone else. Of course the number of atheists and agnostics is growing, but until 100% of the people in the world are non-religious then religion will play a part in political dealings. Hell I wouldn't be so far as to doubt that some politicians outright lie about their religion just so they don't lose votes for claiming themselves to be atheist or agnostic.

DviddLeff · 2011-10-08, 05:53 PM

Not read through the whole 10 pages, but here is my quick response on Science vs religion, but bear in mind I am a Science teacher:

When teaching Science I come across religion in the following places:
1. Big bang and Evolution vs Creationism.
2. The Earth orbits the Sun vs the Sun is carried around the Earth by a dung beetle/chariot/boat

That is all.

No question of if God exists, no question as to if the holy books are fiction and both are unlikely to ever be proven wrong conclusively.

Now Science cannot answer everything; we currently have piss all clue as to what there was (if anything) before the Big Bang, we can't explain a ton of stuff about gravity, why galaxies move the way they do (dark matter is simply the problems answer named but not understood) and we do not know why far away galaxies appear to be accelerating (again dark energy is a fix to answer a question we don't know). Hell, we can't even say how the gravity of Earth keeps you in your seat, our Religious Education teacher tells the kids its gravity fairies; when they then come to ask me if it is I tell them it may as well be, scientists just call them gravitons instead.

Now personally do I believe in a God? No, I do not; I have not seen any evidence and am not convinced that the average energy density of the Universe being just so gives us that evidence.

Yet religion is an ultimately good thing, it provides society with a set of moral values which go a long way towards improving it, yet as we are all aware there are extremists and those who would abuse religion for selfish and immoral ends. In the UK we see families and communities fragmenting as the order and rules that religion provides disappears from lives, as people become increasingly selfish. Now this is certainly not the only reason, but it is certainly a factor.

Firefly · 2011-10-09, 12:25 AM

All of the religious people I've talked to say the only thing taught in Sunday School classes follows along the lines of G-d created the heavens and the earth. Even religion acknowledges that science explains how things work. None of the people I have ever talked to have said anything about gravity fairies, for example.

MadPenguin · 2011-10-09, 04:59 PM

To make a claim that religion does not belong in politics is very, very dumb.

Depends what you mean, religious views can have a say in politics sure, you can be motivated by religion to try and make abortion illegal (well, i personally would just try and get the time after which you can get an abortion reduced, but whatever). What religion CANNOT do (or at least shouldn't be able to do) is come to a serious debate like abortion or a debate about stem cell research and say "you cant do that, its against my religion", you have to argue your case using reason like anyone else. You also cant say "your not allowed to do stem cell research, the collections of 150 cells have souls" You cant base your argument on the existence of souls since there is no reason to believe in souls.

So i reiterate, religious views are fine in politics, as long as they are argued properly, and not by simply playing the "faith card" and other such tricks. I think (hope) thats what other atheists or whatever mean when they say religion shouldnt affect politics, thats at least what i mean.

Yet religion is an ultimately good thing, it provides society with a set of moral values which go a long way towards improving it, yet as we are all aware there are extremists and those who would abuse religion for selfish and immoral ends. In the UK we see families and communities fragmenting as the order and rules that religion provides disappears from lives, as people become increasingly selfish. Now this is certainly not the only reason, but it is certainly a factor.

This kind of statement coming from an atheist is worrying to me, surely you are in a very good position to see that religion is not needed for a good set of morals? Its nice religion can give people morals, but people would have these morals anyway. Your claim about family fragmentation being a result of lack of religious rules... well, again, you should be in a perfect position to see that a lack of a religion doesnt affect this kind of thing. I doubt you would ever leave your wife (imaginary or not) because you arent religious. If you were unhappy with your wife, religion wouldnt keep you together. If you are saying religion encourages people to stay in unhappy marriages, how is that a good thing?

Sirisian · 2011-10-09, 08:37 PM

I think MadPenguin summed up the 'ol secular humanism argument very well that a lot of Atheists adhere to.

Originally Posted by Firefly

None of the people I have ever talked to have said anything about gravity fairies, for example.

Blasphemy. Pastafarians believes all particles should be together and FSM pulls them toward one another with his his infinite noodly appendages. Common sense really.

Crator · 2011-10-09, 11:27 PM

The existence of God is not enough to explain the existence of the Universe. If it is valid to say "everything has a cause except God", it is more likely that everything has a cause except the Universe. If God doesn't need a cause because it is infinite, it is more likely that the natural Universe has existed forever and therefore doesn't need a cause.

Quovatis · 2011-10-10, 12:15 AM

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

The thing that scares me the most in all of that and this is slightly off topic. We are attempting ( and I believe succeeded ) in the creation of a stabalized black hole with the hadron super collider.... shouldnt be fucking with things of that massive magnitude with our current technology and comprehension of things to do with the universe.....

No, we have not created a black hole, and never will in the near future. Most estimates are that you need a collider as big as the orbit of the earth around the sun to produce a black hole. And even if we did, it would evaporate almost instantly from Hawking radiation. There is no danger.

As for the beginning of the universe, remember that time has no meaning before the big bang. It makes no sense to say "before" the big bang because time as we understand it is tied to space and doesn't exist without the universe. What caused the big bang is currently beyond our scientific knowledge, but that could change in the future, as have many many things in the past. Just giving up and saying god did it is not a solution.

Sirisian · 2011-10-10, 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by IDukeNukeml

then go back a step before that.

Something, somewhere, somehow, some which way had to start it. Period. End. FTW.

You're kind of assuming "nothing" exists when you say that. There was a recent Bill Nye narrated movie about that on youtube. Forgot what it was called.

CutterJohn · 2011-10-10, 01:03 AM

Originally Posted by Crator

The existence of God is not enough to explain the existence of the Universe. If it is valid to say "everything has a cause except God", it is more likely that everything has a cause except the Universe. If God doesn't need a cause because it is infinite, it is more likely that the natural Universe has existed forever and therefore doesn't need a cause.

Yep. Saying god did it just pushes the question back one layer. God made the universe? K, then who or what made god?

Not that god did it isn't a tempting answer. The fact that anything at all exists is positively ludicrous. Either something sprang from a nothingness so uncomprehendable that even labeling it 'nothingness' is a gross misrepresentation, or something has always existed. Both are equally absurd.

Rather like the old quote about aliens from Clarke.. "Sometimes I think we're alone in the universe, and sometimes I think we're not. In either case the idea is quite staggering."

Effective · 2011-10-10, 11:26 AM

The good old God of Gaps explanation "We don't know what caused it, so it must be God". Stupid.

Sirisian · 2011-10-11, 04:00 AM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Either something sprang from a nothingness so uncomprehendable that even labeling it 'nothingness' is a gross misrepresentation, or something has always existed. Both are equally absurd.

It's only absurd to humans at this current time. We place so much meaning on "something", like matter, that "nothing", like the perceived void between electrons and protons, has to exist as a comparison. (It doesn't. Just because stuff exists doesn't mean there was a point it didn't exist). Trying to apply "nothing" to the physical world is a big leap. One might go "but space is empty" when in fact that's a very complicated topic where most people would say there's no such thing as a true vacuum and bring up things like zero-point energy and how space-time bends with heavy masses. If you want to blow your mind just think of two large objects in space and realize there is nothing you can place between the objects to stop them from being attracted to one another so their interaction is generally immeasurable except if you measure the perceived force based on the objects. Similar to if you have two people pulling on a rope you can see the force in the form of tension. When you remove the rope you wonder how the two are attracted together (by gravity) and then you realize there's something really complicated happening in the vacuum between the objects that you can't see or measure. There's a reason scientists spend their lives on such questions.

Traak · 2011-10-11, 04:42 AM

God wrote that he created the heavens and the Earth in the Word of God.

MadPenguin · 2011-10-11, 08:23 AM

God wrote that he created the heavens and the Earth in the Word of God.

lol, i missed your input traak. Earlier today i flew to the sun and ate a peice of it...

evidence please, or failing that, at least give me SOME reason to believe that.

Traak · 2011-10-11, 09:12 AM

Proof? He had holy men of old write as they were inspired by the Spirit of God. Proof that you would accept? Dunno.

Not trying to convince anyone. Just stating.