Pageant contestant disqualified over strange circumstances.

[Hamma]

Originally Posted by Warborn

Rules are rules isn't a good reason though. What if someone had a rule saying gay people couldn't get married? Or black people couldn't sit at the front of a bus? Civil disobedience against unjust laws is what advances societies.

Personally I just can't compare someone attempting to change their gender as anything similar to the items above. I have no issue with the above items but I do have issue with people attempting to change their gender.

I just don't consider them even remotely the same. This isn't a religious thing or anything either I am an atheist and I believe folks should be allowed to do as they choose but changing gender and expecting to be treated 100% as their new gender crosses a line and sets a precedent.

[Quovatis]

That's like saying Rosa Parks should have just become white. You can change your appearance, but you can't change your DNA to become another race or sex.

[Baneblade]

Gender is a grey area, much like sexuality. It isn't black or white.

[WildGunsTomcat]

Originally Posted by Warborn

So you want women to get out of bed and shamble out onto stage with no make-up or hair-do's or anything? I actually kind of laughed writing this. That would be a funny pageant, seeing a bunch of grumpy, unkempt women on stage looking all bedraggled and so on.

lol when you put it that way I have no recourse. That would be the most epic pageant ever.

But my basic argument stands: They disqualified this woman for being a natural born male...even though she has all the parts of a woman.....and I think that most of us can agree the most important part of a woman that makes her a woman is her personality....

Then they need to disqualify women that have fake tits....facelifts...botox injections....anything that wasn't a part of you when you slid out of the vagina on day 1 of your exciting fucking excursion through this shitball of a ride we call life.

[Quovatis]

No, your sex is determined in your DNA. It is pretty black and white. There are some extremely rare genetic circumstances that could be considered a grey area, but that doesn't apply to this particular case.

[ItsTheSheppy]

Originally Posted by Hamma

Personally I just can't compare someone attempting to change their gender as anything similar to the items above. I have no issue with the above items but I do have issue with people attempting to change their gender.

I just don't consider them even remotely the same. This isn't a religious thing or anything either I am an atheist and I believe folks should be allowed to do as they choose but changing gender and expecting to be treated 100% as their new gender crosses a line and sets a precedent.

Please understand that what I'm about to say is in no way designed to cut you down so please don't read it like that.

The thing you have to understand, Hamma, is it's not up to you to decide what gender someone else is. (Remember, gender is the social role of the individual, not the biological sex). If a male identifies as a female; that is to say, acts, talks, and dresses like a female, then it's on you to treat them how they want to be treated. I imagine you want to be treated male; you dress and act like a man. If everyone else in the world decided for you that no, you were a woman and they were going to treat you that way, I can't imagine you would be very happy. People would call you 'miss' or 'missus' intead of 'mister', give you shoes and purses for holidays, take you to see romantic comedies and look at you weird if you tried to talk about sports or whatever. I dunno, I'm just tossing out random examples, fill in your own blanks.

In fact, here is a handy link to a list of things you, as a cisgendered person (cisgender means you feel your gender matches your sex), will not have to worry about, but trans people do.

The thing is, you identify as a male, because that's how you feel; I'm the same way. I feel deep down that I'm a guy, and I like guy things, and I want to be a guy.

Some people are different. They are born male but they feel, deep down, that they are female, and vice versa. Life is hard for these people for reasons I daresay I probably don't need to describe. So we in the rest of the world are presented with a choice. We can either treat them how they have made clear they want to be treated, or we can treat them how we want to, regardless of their wants.

Doing that reduces their dignity and autonomy. We're basically telling them, no, you don't get to identify how you like; we've made that call for you. Even though it costs us nothing to treat you as you feel you deserve to be treated, we will do otherwise because we don't respect your wishes.

Nobody is asking you to understand what it feels like from their perspective. The only thing being asked of you (and the rest of us) is to respect these folks and treat them in a way that makes them feel comfortable and welcome, because there is no reason to do otherwise. To not even meet them that far just shows contempt for them and their self-identity, and that's cruel.

The first step is recognizing that you (and I, and probably everyone reading this if they made it this far) are privileged. We are heteronormative individuals who will probably never have to worry about any sort of serious discrimination based on our sexual identity. The second step is recognizing others are not so privileged, and thinking about how it is we can make the world a better place for them, at zero cost to ourselves..

[WildGunsTomcat]

Originally Posted by Quovatis

No, your sex is determined in your DNA. It is pretty black and white. There are some extremely rare genetic circumstances that could be considered a grey area, but that doesn't apply to this particular case.

Right....but think about this Quovatis....

We all start out as females. It's an extra chromosome that makes us male.

Could that possibly explain why some men come out thinking that they're female...or vice versa?

There's still a lot we don't know about the maturation process and what it does chemically to the human brain. So even though someone comes out as a male...they might have the brain chemistry of a female...and always feel the urge to BE a female.

Everyone is arguing over body parts...when I think it should go deeper than that. Everyone is arguing over estrogen and testosterone...I think it should go deeper than even that.

But there's already a "Soul and God" thread so I won't cross over.

But I think if you're meant to be something...you will fight tooth and nail to become that very thing you were born to be.

I think they're wrong here for dq'ing this woman....and that's my final word on it.

Sidenote: I really do have varied opinions on things. I own Guns, I believe in God...I hate religion....and I am all for gay marriage and LGBT rights. Goes to show you don't always have to fit stereotypes and tow the party line. ;0)

[Malorn]

Meh.

[Hamma]

Also a good point Malorn.

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

The thing you have to understand, Hamma, is it's not up to you to decide what gender someone else is.

You are right - it's determined when someone comes out of the womb with either a penis or a vagina and their DNA is written as such. You can certainly identify as a man or a woman but outright changing your appears to match how you feel then participating in events designed for the opposite sex is just wrong.

There is no grey area it's a black and white issue. You are either a man or a woman not both and it's defined in your DNA.

[Vash02]

The fact they allow plastic surgery pisses on Malorns point Hamma.

Its a beauty pageant, not a "who I would like to impregnate the most" pageant.

[Warborn]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Something my wife pointed out was that having someone with male-DNA in a patent like that is an unfair advantage to that person due to things like narrower hips, different fat distribution, and other such characteristics. Women starve themselves and work hard to maintain the figures they do, and someone with male DNA will have an easier time with that.

Seems like a good rule to have to maintain fairness and validity of the pagent.

This doesn't seem to hold water to me. Lets see.

Hips - Narrow hips are bad and boyish. Wider hips are feminine and an integral part of the "hourglass figure" that has been attractive to men for many years.

Fat - Google Image Search "miss america" or "miss universe" or whatever, then do the same for "fashion model anorexia". The latter result is what having only a handful of percentage points of fat on a woman looks like. The former is what they're aiming for. Having a low but still healthy level of fat is what wins competitions. A woman with no ass at all, no tits, and the ridges of her scapula, clavicles and so on being readily visible is unattractive.

Furthermore, if Jenna here still has male fat distribution patterns then her excess fat will go to her abdomen/mesentery primarily, rather than her ass/thighs. That is a disadvantage.

[TheSHiFT]

Originally Posted by Hamma

Also a good point Malorn.



You are right - it's determined when someone comes out of the womb with either a penis or a vagina and their DNA is written as such. You can certainly identify as a man or a woman but outright changing your appears to match how you feel then participating in events designed for the opposite sex is just wrong.

There is no grey area it's a black and white issue. You are either a man or a woman not both and it's defined in your DNA.

You're talking about sex, not gender. Gender is a social construct that has a basis in sex.

[Quovatis]

Sex and gender are synonyms (at least in dictionaries and to most people). I agree there should be a distinction for the social construct of sexual identity, but "gender" isn't that widely accepted yet. To the vast majority of people saying you are female means that your sex is female, not that you identify yourself as female.

[Traak]

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

Gender is a grey area, much like sexuality. It isn't black or white.

No, it's as black and white as it gets. Just like sexuality. There isn't male, female, and then a broad percentage of weird-chromosome things in between.

[Traak]

Eric Cartman choosing to be retarded so he can win in the Special Olympics.

.