Cockpit View - [Now Forced per Higby]

[HoovesMcG]

Forced, with all head tracking and free look technologies supported, now that there is a cockpit it just would be silly to not include head tracking.

[Baneblade]

Everyone, keep in mind that SKYeXile is an air cav (Mossie) infantry farmer. Ive never seen him do anything else. So his hostility makes sense in that context...

I mean if someone came along and told you you had to develop some skill and work within the same rules as everyone else, you would be peeved too.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by Stardouser

Right. The issue here is extremely simple - should the devs put lots of hours into 3D cockpits that some players will want to use, and indeed doing it in order make them want to use it, while at the same time giving players the option to remove it and have an unobstructed view, and advantage. How can you argue that people should be able to choose? If they can choose that, then I want to be able to choose to turn suppression effects off, bloody screen while damaged, vehicle animations, all of it. I'm not saying these things are being considered for PS2, but if they were, if you can turn your cockpit view off, then you should be able to turn all those things off. Wait, no, you shouldn't because that would give you an advantage.

I think I know what Sky is getting at, and I'll use the above post as an example.

Look at the bolded parts. Stardouser (and I don't mean to pick on you, I'm just using your post as an example) has voted to keep cockpits forced on because allowing the HUD option would be "an advantage." So I think he saw the different view choices like this:

Option 1: Cockpit 1st person view
Option 2: 3rd person view
Option 3: 1st person view that's exactly the same as Option 1, but with the cockpit removed.

Which is basically what Pig's poll looks like. There's little chance anyone with balance in mind would allow Option 3 since it is 100% unequivocally superior in visibility to Option 1. In this version there are no trade-offs for removing the cockpit.

However, Sky thinks it should look like this:

Option 1: Cockpit 1st person view with mouselook ability
Option 2: 3rd person view
Option 3: 1st person view with the cockpit removed, but with a smaller FOV than Option 1 and no mouselook ability

In this version, there are obvious downsides for choosing Option 3. As such, it is no longer a clear advantage over Option 1. In fact in many instances Option 1 (EDIT: oops, typo corrected) would have an advantage.

Now, I'm not saying that everyone will see the poll like the first list of options. But judging from the posts in this thread I'd say a lot of people did. Hence the potential bias in the poll.


That about right Sky?

[SKYeXile]

essentially, yes. the cockpit blocks about 20% view(not including instruments) the idea would be to offer a 3rd view thats zoomed in, mounted on the nose cannon that offers about 20-30% less FOV.

Irreverent what it would actually be, as long as its seen as balanced with the cockpit view.

but yea, you read through the thread, there are numerous people who voted for yes, and then go onto state, balance or offering hud elements would render cockpit useless etc.

[SKYeXile]

Originally Posted by Sobekeus

Everyone, keep in mind that SKYeXile is an air cav (Mossie) infantry farmer. Ive never seen him do anything else. So his hostility makes sense in that context...

I mean if someone came along and told you you had to develop some skill and work within the same rules as everyone else, you would be peeved too.

I'm all for balance, that way the butt hurt children wont complain when im still top of the leader board(or maybe you will?). but it does not have to be done through the use of a cluttered UI or even restricting aiming to first person view, they could have much more interesting aircraft if they allowed aiming in 3rd person view anyway.

[Asp]

Probably should be forced, like others have said, if there are options to quickly see your flanks and if anyone is pursuing, then great..

[EVILPIG]

Originally Posted by Erendil

I think I know what Sky is getting at, and I'll use the above post as an example.

Look at the bolded parts. Stardouser (and I don't mean to pick on you, I'm just using your post as an example) has voted to keep cockpits forced on because allowing the HUD option would be "an advantage." So I think he saw the different view choices like this:

Option 1: Cockpit 1st person view
Option 2: 3rd person view
Option 3: 1st person view that's exactly the same as Option 1, but with the cockpit removed.

Which is basically what Pig's poll looks like. There's little chance anyone with balance in mind would allow Option 3 since it is 100% unequivocally superior in visibility to Option 1. In this version there are no trade-offs for removing the cockpit.

However, Sky thinks it should look like this:

Option 1: Cockpit 1st person view with mouselook ability
Option 2: 3rd person view
Option 3: 1st person view with the cockpit removed, but with a smaller FOV than Option 1 and no mouselook ability

In this version, there are obvious downsides for choosing Option 3. As such, it is no longer a clear advantage over Option 1. In fact in many instances Option 1 (EDIT: oops, typo corrected) would have an advantage.

Now, I'm not saying that everyone will see the poll like the first list of options. But judging from the posts in this thread I'd say a lot of people did. Hence the potential bias in the poll.


That about right Sky?

When I made this poll, the devs had not said that there would be free mouse look. Also, if you look at the HUD view from GDC, it's not zoomed in, it's actually further out than the cockpit view. The poll was simply asking if cockpit view should be forced. I then went on to discuss a HUD option. People getting whiny and upset was not called for, it's a simple discussion. Personally, I prefer a forced cockpit view, as it adds immersion. From a gamer perspective, I prefer a HUD view as it offers a clearer view. Ether way, I don't care because I will be having fun. I have always owned in flight games.


Here's the cockpit vs. HUD comparison. Note the HUD is zoomed in, as has been said.

Cockpit


HUD

[EVILPIG]

Originally Posted by elfailo

I don't really mind the rest of your post, I'm picking out this sentence because it doesn't make any sense at all, and if people just keep repeating the same shit without reading the rest of the thread or letting sound arguments influence their opinion, others tend to get upset. It's like debating a stone wall.

Immersion is a totally subjective quality. You may find it hard to believe, but obstructions in my viewpane tend to make me feel less immersed in games in general. When I saw the early screenshots of Tribes Ascend I hated the size of weapons - they blocked half the screen. I wasn't even concerned with whether or not it would be balanced, I simply hate big obstructions. Hi-Rez has fixed it though, they're allowing people to use smaller weapon models. Most do, some don't. Nobody ever complains. Remember Pong...

Furthermore, if it's your personal preference, you don't need it to be forced to be able to use it. Cockpit view is going to be in, that's clear at this point, so you will be able to use it and feel more immersed by it regardless of whether other people use it or not. Forcing it only makes it so that those who don't share the same subjective experience as you, get something shoved down their throats that they don't like.

I addressed all the balance concerns already and, especially now that we'll get mouse-look, they have all turned out to be irrelevant. I can hardly imagine there's any other reason to force it.

The "personally" in my statement, kinda makes your post unecessary. It's just my opinion. It says nothing of anyone else's opinion. You also took it out of context, as my next statement provides an opposing opinion.

[xSquirtle]

still see they are keeping that god damn aiming UI. FFS keep that shit simple, no need to fill my screen with useless bs. (feel the rage in this post!)

[Malorn]

Whichever view has the greatest amount of unobstructed visibility is the one people will pick. That makes the other option(s) meaningless.

[Kilmoran]

Originally Posted by SuperMorto

No it shouldn't, I am all for cockpit views, I love them, its all I use until.......................... you try to park the thing between 2 trees and then things get difficult. Also there isn't much to gain from 3rd person view in the air. Also ground vehicles shouldn't have it forced, I know there is a slight advantage to having the view on for spotting reasons, but I don't think it outweighs the advantage of parking etc. Thing is your in game senses are different from real world, so we need the 3rd person view to make up for that.

And just to clear, I don't think 3rd person for infantry has any place in PS2.

But to be an affective precision pilot in this kind of fast paced game, we need 3rd person on vehicles. Thats not to say we could have a speed limit on 3rd person???..

Morto.

While this is off point... I will say that... vehicles drivers don't have senses beyond what the vehicle allows them to see. People do have many senses that aid them beyond sight.. so your argument seems backwards to me. Fighter Pilots don't have cameras hovering around their air craft in order to land them... and they don't dodge between trees because that's suicidal at 300+ MPH.

[EVILPIG]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Whichever view has the greatest amount of unobstructed visibility is the one people will pick. That makes the other option(s) meaningless.

Curious what you think of the zoomed HUD vs. cockpit? I edited the original post. Since everyone keeps asking for the HUD to be zoomed, I made it that way. As you can see, it is unobstructed, yet cockpit view gives you extra angles out of the side windows.

And I agree. As I stated earlier, I always choose the option to drop cockpit graphics if offered.

[Malorn]

Zooming is basically putting on blinders and is the same as if you had started obstructing the outside edges of the screen. The more you zoom the more of the outside edges are obstructed.

Zoomed HUD as you display it is inferior, but it depends on how much zoom. Losing a little bit of visibility on the sides to gain more center/bottom visibility may be a worthwhile tradeoff, but the more it zooms in the less worthwhile it gets. It doesn't take much of a zoom before it's strictly inferior.

If the Zoom was a toggle then it's essentially just like the zoom from PS1 you could do. It was situationally useful but flying around always zoomed was rather awkward and is like flying with blinders on.

The result is that people would use the cockpit view for everyday piloting and use the zoomed view when they wanted to hit a long range target more accurately.

[EVILPIG]

Originally Posted by Malorn

Zooming is basically putting on blinders and is the same as if you had started obstructing the outside edges of the screen. The more you zoom the more of the outside edges are obstructed.

Zoomed HUD as you display it is inferior, but it depends on how much zoom. Losing a little bit of visibility on the sides to gain more center/bottom visibility may be a worthwhile tradeoff, but the more it zooms in the less worthwhile it gets. It doesn't take much of a zoom before it's strictly inferior.

If the Zoom was a toggle then it's essentially just like the zoom from PS1 you could do. It was situationally useful but flying around always zoomed was rather awkward and is like flying with blinders on.

The result is that people would use the cockpit view for everyday piloting and use the zoomed view when they wanted to hit a long range target more accurately.

Regardless of whether it is inferior as is, I ask because a zoomed view is what is being discussed. As you can see the original HUD view was actually a wider FoV than the cockpit view. I ask because so many are wanting a zoomed HUD view and it still seems that a cockpit would be better than most any zoomed HUD. I bet when the Scyth comes out it is the widest FoV and a lot of the HUD supporters change their mind. lol

[SneakyBeaky]

cockpit view is much better