Trayvon Martin - Page 29

Geist · 2012-04-16, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

The reason this is such a huge nationwide story is because it's a perfect storm of problems that are either real or perceived to be real. It's an unarmed young black man shot dead in a neighborhood he had every right to be in by a white(ish) guy who suspected him of being a criminal based on no apparent evidence to support such a claim. It was based purely on looks. He was a black teenager in a hoodie walking through a gated neighborhood at night.

Add to that the fact that Zimmerman was not initially charged or even properly investigated because of a controversial gun right's law. Mix all of that in a pot and what you have is the headline of "It's open season on blacks". Of course it's racially charged. Of course the details don't necessarily all support the narrative.

It is foolish, however, to say that there isn't a great deal of racially motivated injustice in this country. It comes to mind, after all, how likely it would have been if a 17 year old white kid in a hoodie was walking down the street. Would he have ended up dead? That's the question the country is asking itself, and is really the heart of this entire conversation.

Having that conversation doesn't make any of us bigots.

Your a bigot if you think him being white would have changed anything. A huge white kid in a hoodie at night? I don't see how the color of his skin would have made him any less suspicious.

Figment · 2012-04-16, 07:31 PM

So anyone with a hood is suspicious? So if we ban hoods as a clothing line, we have no more criminal suspects?

Mind, I'm not saying a white person with a hood can't be a thug, just that judging someone by what they wear is also a form of discrimination.

Warborn · 2012-04-16, 07:37 PM

Originally Posted by Geist

You do realize that you are coming across as having more racial prejudice then the posters you imply are "racist shitheads"(I assume your generalization included other posters?).

Please tell me more about how thinking a guy should go to trial over killing an unarmed kid makes me a racist.

I don't know if you noticed, but shit happens all the time. People shoot other people on a daily basis, and a lot of times the killer is never caught, or people know and he walks due to a technicality. Where is the outrage? Where is the media, why don't they bring it to our attention the way it did with Zimmerman and Martin?

Doesn't happen all the time here, actually, but then we don't have wannabe cops with violent criminal records running around with a 9 in their waistband.

You do hear about all of those other crimes. You've heard of Casey Anthony? You've heard of OJ Simpson? There are many, many cases you have no doubt heard about that are all examples of where people believe justice was not done. The difference between this one and those, of course, is that Zimmerman wasn't even charged with anything. Do unarmed kids get intentionally killed by a guy with a firearm so often that the treatment of this case is really so peculiar?

And as I mentioned, the real fault of the media would be that there might be other killings where the killer walks without trial because of bullshit gun laws. The treatment of the killing of this Martin kid is almost entirely appropriate (the few instances of bullshit like editing the call aside), and without it there'd be no chance for justice for the dead kid. So the outrage of people over the media in this thread and elsewhere is totally misplaced, and it's sad we live in a world where people can be so apathetic to the murder of a teenager that it's actually something that needs to be said.

Vecha · 2012-04-16, 09:34 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

So the outrage of people over the media in this thread and elsewhere is totally misplaced, and it's sad we live in a world where people can be so apathetic to the murder of a teenager that it's actually something that needs to be said.

It is entirely possible to not only be outraged that no justice is being done as well as being outraged how bigots(The left and the right) are handling the case.

Hell, here you are, being outraged at Trayvon being killed just as you are bothered that there are people who are trying to defend Zimmerman(and made a few jabs at Fox News).

Don't lump me into the group that believes there shouldn't be a trial.

Baneblade · 2012-04-16, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

So the outrage of people over the media in this thread and elsewhere is totally misplaced, and it's sad we live in a world where people can be so apathetic to the murder of a teenager that it's actually something that needs to be said.

Who the fuck do you think you are?

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-04-17, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by Geist

Your a bigot if you think him being white would have changed anything. A huge white kid in a hoodie at night? I don't see how the color of his skin would have made him any less suspicious.

...what made him suspicious to begin with, Geist? He was returning from a convenience store with a bag of skittles, on his way back to his dad's house.

... and since when is he huge?

... and I have to ask again, how is it bigotry to ask if things would have been different had he not been black? I don't think you understand the word 'bigotry'.

**Malorn** · 2012-04-17, 09:29 AM

Meh.

Quovatis · 2012-04-20, 10:36 AM

New pictures of Zimmerman's injured head after shooting:
http://gma.yahoo.com/warning-graphic...opstories.html

Figment · 2012-04-20, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Quovatis

New pictures of Zimmerman's injured head after shooting:
http://gma.yahoo.com/warning-graphic...opstories.html

Not sure what difference that image makes though, it was already known he had been bleeding, just that the injuries wern't severe enough to require severe medical treatment. Had similar injuries as a kid after falling and on the football pitch.

Neither the nose bleed nor this says anything about what went down.

The more interesting information in that article is that the gunpowder burns were clearly visible on Martin's hood, indicating he was very near to Zimmerman when shot (in the chest iirc?). So at the very least, Martin was not shot from a distance. Unfortunately that doesn't say anything on whether he was backing off or not (or if he even had a chance to) after the gun was drawn. Ballistics should indicate how they were standing with respect to each other.

The question remains why there was a fight though. Was Martin defending himself or did he attack? Did Martin feel cornered and/or did he see an opportunity to turn the roles (hunter becomes the hunted) in a pre-emptive strike? Did Martin confront Zimmerman about why he was following him or did Zimmerman find Martin hiding somewhere and confronted him about why he was there? Or did they run into each other after thinking they lost one another and one of them panicked (could be Martin)? Did Martin believe Zimmerman to be a mugger or assailant and went vigilante himself?

So many potential ways things could have gone down. :/

Hamma · 2012-04-20, 12:09 PM

The difference it makes is it proves there was some sort of struggle at close range. I don't have a source at the moment but the percentage of gun fights that occur within 20 feet or less is around 90% the gunpowder burns are not surprising.

If you were in a case where you had to use your gun you typically don't pull it out just to show it around. You pull it out to use it and are in fear of your life.

The last part of what you said is very true though we don't know what happened that led up to this.

Figment · 2012-04-20, 12:42 PM

I figured that there was a fight of some sort was already established because it was known the paramedics had treated him for wounds on the back of the head and nose.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-04-20, 01:09 PM

I'm really wondering why they're trying to pin him for 2nd degree murder, when it really does look more like a manslaughter case. There doesn't seem to be much to suggest that Zimmerman, upon spotting Trayvon, had any intention of killing him. There was clearly a fight. The question should be, was the force Zimmerman used lawful?

I have a feeling he's going to be acquitted of these charges, which is unfortunate, because I don't think he's entirely innocent... I just don't think he's guilty of second degree murder.

**Malorn** · 2012-04-20, 01:48 PM

Meh.

Geist · 2012-04-20, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

...what made him suspicious to begin with, Geist? He was returning from a convenience store with a bag of skittles, on his way back to his dad's house.

... and since when is he huge?

... and I have to ask again, how is it bigotry to ask if things would have been different had he not been black? I don't think you understand the word 'bigotry'.

Sorry I haven't responded, been busy.

First off, I admit I'm no expert, but he was wearing a hoodie correct? And it was at night? I'm not saying he was in the right to follow this kid and confront him(if that was indeed what happened), I just think that it was more likely that he was looking at the fact that it was at night, he was wearing his hoodie up, in a neighborhood where robberies have taken place.

And he was 6'3" right(could be wrong, just got it off a random news site), although I personally don't know why I put in that he was huge, his height probably didn't have much to do with anything.

And finally, I probably shouldn't have said that you were a bigot for thinking so, and I apologize, but I do find it strange that people automatically jump to the conclusion that he was racially profiling Trayvon Martin when so far, the only proof has been edited recordings and personal opinion.

I personally believe that what is really fueling most racism in America atm is politics and the media, it's one of our greatest problems right now. The media and politicians/political parties are so divisive I feel we may be headed down a path we really don't want to head down.

I'm really wondering why they're trying to pin him for 2nd degree murder, when it really does look more like a manslaughter case. There doesn't seem to be much to suggest that Zimmerman, upon spotting Trayvon, had any intention of killing him. There was clearly a fight. The question should be, was the force Zimmerman used lawful?

I have a feeling he's going to be acquitted of these charges, which is unfortunate, because I don't think he's entirely innocent... I just don't think he's guilty of second degree murder.

I really am glad we can agree on this particular point.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-04-20, 03:55 PM

I need you to understand that I am not trolling you or being facetious when I warn you that suggesting that wearing a hoodie and being tall made him "suspicious" is coming dangerously close to the irresponsible thinking that blames rape victims for dressing like "sluts" and alluding, obliquely, that they deserved it, or are somehow responsible for what happened to him.

It doesn't matter how you dress or what you look like; so long as we are minding our own business, we all have a right to move through our lives without having to worry about ending up on the receiving end of violence from another. It is, at the core of things, the most basic human right there is.

There is no evidence at all that Martin was conducting improper or suspicious actions. Pointing out physical descriptors does not change that, and only betrays prejudices that I think deserve a great deal of scrutiny.