What a travisty - Page 6

ziegler · 2012-06-29, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

So many socialist idiots in this community. Really blows my mind. The government is slow and inefficient at everything it does and people want to give it more responsibility. Sheer stupidity.

Ask a Vet what they think about the VA Medical Care or Medicaid people what they think about it....we're going to be getting worse than that in a few short years.

ChargerCarl · 2012-06-29, 04:02 PM

medicare and the VA are more efficient than private insurance.

administrative costs for private insurance: 14%

administrative costs for medicare: 2%

Exmortius · 2012-06-29, 04:03 PM

in summary. other than the military....what gov't run service is run better than a private one? anyone......anyone.... bueller.... ?

ChargerCarl · 2012-06-29, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Exmortius

in summary. other than the military....what gov't run service is run better than a private one? anyone......anyone.... bueller.... ?

medicare

Sirisian · 2012-06-29, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Competition hasn't had an opportunity to work because of government restrictions prohibiting cross state insurance purchasing. We have only local choices, of which there are few. Of course they can jack the prices because we have no other options. And they have to have high prices because malpractice suits get to absurd costs and penalties. They have no incentive to lower prices and doing so is a risk.

Are you suggesting that private insurance isn't viable for a population of the average state? You're suggesting we allow insurance companies to run other insurance companies out of business so they can what? Lower prices? Once you let insurance companies loose across state lines they'll just grow. There's absolutely no incentive for them to lower prices or partake in competition.

Vash02 · 2012-06-29, 04:11 PM

Actually Malorn, government only has control over the purse strings in Europe(well, at least in the UK). Control is not in their hands and government has a healthy incentive to keep it well funded if they want to keep votes.
Then there is still the option to have private insurance.

**Malorn** · 2012-06-29, 04:26 PM

Meh.

Sirisian · 2012-06-29, 04:41 PM

I'm familiar with the oligopoly, but I've never heard of "perfect competition". Makes sense I guess, but it seems more of a fantasy or something you'd see under a dictatorship where companies are controlled very strictly.

Originally Posted by Malorn

What it should strive to become
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition

Is this what conservatives believes will happen? This sounds like it requires a lot of control. I think at that point you're basically creating private companies that work for the government. That and it makes the assumption that companies won't work together to mutually raise prices, which requires oversight.

If it's possible that would be amazing to have a ton of insurance companies constantly fighting for customers such that none of them can ever be put out of business and can't gain control. I mean that's essentially what a single payer system would do with controlling everything.

**Malorn** · 2012-06-29, 05:00 PM

Meh.

Warborn · 2012-06-29, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by LegioX

Do i need to show you all the times Obama stated to the American people "its not a tax"? Would you be mad if the Pres. directly lied to you about the entire process on how the bill was passed?

This is the point though. It isn't about him lying or not. He's lied his ass off while in office. He lied about stopping torture, lied about not prosecuting whisteblowers, lied about being easy on medical marijuana, lied about closing Guantanamo, lied about meaningful health care reform, etc etc. This isn't about him lying. You people don't give a fuck about him lying, otherwise we'd have outrage threads every week. What you care about is the word "tax". Even if it isn't a tax you'll have to pay, even if it's a tax that serves an important function, anytime someone even farts and it sounds like the word "tax" there's a shit storm across the spectrum.

Taxes are important. Taxes pay for your shiny missiles to blow up brown people with, and to give to your bankers so they can continue to play games with peoples livelihoods. "Tax" isn't a bad word, and it's fairly recently that it's become a bad word in the US. Reagan raised taxes numerous times and yet he's jackoff material for the American right.

So at least be honest with yourselves here. This isn't because your image of Obama as an honest guy has been shattered. It's because that fucking weirdo Grover Norquist and guys like him have told you that raising taxes is tantamount to raping babies, and like with everything else you've bought their spiel without giving it a second thought.

**Malorn** · 2012-06-29, 06:30 PM

Meh.

ChargerCarl · 2012-06-29, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

You really need to learn about economics. Here, educate yourself so you stop making idiotic posts.

The basics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

What US Health Care is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly

What it should strive to become
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_competition

And when we move beyond random wikipedia links:

Originally Posted by ChargerCarl

Actually it is as Kenneth Arrow outlined in 1963:

http://www.who.int/bulletin/volumes/82/2/PHCBP.pdf

n2q0_matrix · 2012-06-29, 08:35 PM

Who owns you? Anyone that can force you to do something, owns you.

Everyone has their line in the sand at a different point. An example is with Car insurance vs Health insurance mandates. ( brought up already) Some think one is OK but not the other, some both, some neither. Until you realize that it is a more fundamental issue, that these are high level and we need to focus on the most basic level, we aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

To me it is simple... if it is NOT VOLUNTARY, then it is bad, anti-liberty and against my basic Right to exist.
If it violates the NON-AGGRESSION principle, then is is bad, anti-liberty and against my basic Right to exist.

Until the mass of the populace gets to this point, nothing will change. We have to get to where things are so painful for most people before we will do something about it, and then most will do something detrimental first. Historical patterns are a bitch.

I refuse to be a slave to anyone. But pay taxes only so I don't get put in a cage. Think about that for a minute. Were we born with obligations? Where did they come from? What binds us to them? How do you define slavery?

One more thing. We are NOT A DEMOCRACY....democracies are mob rule. For this reason we are a Republic... a Democratic Republic. Propaganda in action people. If you say we are a democracy, then you have fallen for the massive rhetoric that everyone spews on the news over and over. Democracy, they need democracy, once they have a democracy, a democracy like ours. You fell for it....what else have you fallen for?

Democracies don't work, and I no longer think Republics do. What will? Governments are just groups of people, do we really need a government? Fun stuff to ponder

PS: Research Nullification
Check out SeaSteading

ChargerCarl · 2012-06-29, 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by n2q0_matrix

Who owns you? Anyone that can force you to do something, owns you.

Everyone has their line in the sand at a different point. An example is with Car insurance vs Health insurance mandates. ( brought up already) Some think one is OK but not the other, some both, some neither. Until you realize that it is a more fundamental issue, that these are high level and we need to focus on the most basic level, we aren't going anywhere anytime soon.

To me it is simple... if it is NOT VOLUNTARY, then it is bad, anti-liberty and against my basic Right to exist.
If it violates the NON-AGGRESSION principle, then is is bad, anti-liberty and against my basic Right to exist.

Until the mass of the populace gets to this point, nothing will change. We have to get to where things are so painful for most people before we will do something about it, and then most will do something detrimental first. Historical patterns are a bitch.

I refuse to be a slave to anyone. But pay taxes only so I don't get put in a cage. Think about that for a minute. Were we born with obligations? Where did they come from? What binds us to them? How do you define slavery?

One more thing. We are NOT A DEMOCRACY....democracies are mob rule. For this reason we are a Republic... a Democratic Republic. Propaganda in action people. If you say we are a democracy, then you have fallen for the massive rhetoric that everyone spews on the news over and over. Democracy, they need democracy, once they have a democracy, a democracy like ours. You fell for it....what else have you fallen for?

Democracies don't work, and I no longer think Republics do. What will? Governments are just groups of people, do we really need a government? Fun stuff to ponder

PS: Research Nullification
Check out SeaSteading

you know you have the choices not to pay your taxes, just be ready to accept the consequences of your actions.

CutterJohn · 2012-06-29, 10:04 PM

Consumer choice? What consumer choice? The consumer choice you get when you are scraped off the sidewalk and wake up several weeks later from a coma with a 6 figure bill?

Free market cannot work for many aspects of health care because the people do not have bargaining position for many things. Its 'Pay this or be in pain/disabled/die.', and quite often you are in no position at all to shop around and negotiate or shop around for better deals.

"No no, take me over to Mercy General, these prices are outrageous. Timmy, grab that ice box with my face in it."

If you want a boob job or lasik, sure, free market works wonderfully. Those things are not necessary to live. You can afford to take time to shop around for the best deal. The free market is not so great when you have cancer or just had a heart attack. People really, really, really want to live, and will pay anything to do so.

What do you people imagine life is like in Canada, Britain, western europe, australia, new zealand, etc?