Planetside 2 Classes vs Certs - Page 5

Roidster · 2012-07-04, 11:55 AM

the biggest thing im going to miss,on the cert side over the class side,as snipers sitting in our nest,it was always nice to revive my buddy,without have to worry about having a medic with us all the time

infected · 2012-07-04, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Cordless

I see where everyone is coming from on the prone thing but this isnt a game (or a world) where you are scared to die. If you die and the spawns are too far go get a gal and move it up. Or sundy if you spawn from those.
Again with the twitch streams - i dont think anyone wants this to be a game of cower behind the corner and hope you can snag kills. Your individual character just isnt important in the whole battle, so why slow it down just so you live?

you're just so wrong. "this isn't a world where..." let me stop you right there
1. dying is bad, no matter how close the respawn is.
2. individuals do make the difference.
3. we're not talking about cowering. anyone who played bfbc2 and then bf3 knows how much it sucks to not be able to prone. crouching just isn't sufficient cover. you will still be exposed. i mean in that case you might as well remove crouch as well, for all the good it is.

SnipeGrzywa · 2012-07-04, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Cordless

I'm no PS master and probably never will be but I'm absolutely certain that I'll be glad for dedicated class roles after watching PS1 on Twitch for the last few days.

I'll be happy not to have to watch any more battles where everyone shoots one clip and then backs around a corner while they reload, heal themselves, repair themselves, and then very carefully if at all go back to the fight. Every fight I watch I think about how much cooler it will be with dedicated healers and heal grenades and all the other things better than shooting yourself in the arm for thirty seconds.

On a semi-related note I sure hope the third person camera is disabled because sitting a staircase watching around the corner the whole time is corny as hell.

First off, the game currently there isn't "Planetside." Its the game Planetside turned into. When Planetside first launched, even when players started dinging BR20, there were "classes." They were player defined, but in any particular fight you had a roll that you must fill. There weren't jack of all trade soldiers back then. Ya, you might have your adv hacker on a heavy assault guy, but your average gal drop had 2 adv hackers, 2 adv medics (1 a cloaker), couple engineers, 2-4 AV (depending on hack or gen drop), and 2 maxes plus other players with guns. And no one did more then 2 of those roles at once. That was the whole point of being in an outfit, so you could specialize in something and know you always had a squad that needed those skills.

As far as seeing everyone take 2 hits and backing up, I noticed this alot to. Was driving nd insane! And its this way now because players have gotten away from the team based play due to lack of pop over the years. (and the upped BR allows them to). Like they community keeps reminding the new members, you will field a LOT in Planetside.
Key is that as long as you are pushing foward then your adv medics can rez you.

They stated no 3rd person, obviously things can always change.

Originally Posted by Higby

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

I'm warming up my Tar right now. I personally feel you are changing to much, but your game you can do what you want. I understand trying to balance, but I don't like being limited to certain combo of weapons based on your "support" skill. Most relevant to me I will want to use a sniper rifle whenever outdoors. That requires me to use the infiltrator class, so now I have the weakest armor. O, and also can't have AV because I'm an infiltrator.

The only way you could redeem this is to be the first game that DOESN'T use tracers in sniper rifles! Seriously, that makes no sense, and. I can't stand it. Yes, looks pretty seeing all the bullets flying around the map, but if you can realisticly do that then congrats, you are a super hero.

Originally Posted by qbert2

Also, anything that lets me as a medic / engineer support my team without them having to sit still is awesome. FPS players are like ADHD monkeys on meth, it's impossible for them to hold still.

Above response, specifically about team work and lack there of in the current game. Back in the day, it wouldn't be a mad rush into the base. It would be cordinated outfit hits. IE: AT will drop onto roof for hack and hold. SoV will do back door for gen drop, meet in the spawn rooms while the Zerg dies at the front door. Do to that cordination, it was easier to effectifily keep a team up. I understand where you are comming from, but at same time I'd rather see more skil/cordination rather then Spam heals. This isn't a raid in a MMORPG.

Originally Posted by Zebasiz

With heal grenades: What do ya'll think of them acting like regular grenades, that is, no IFF on them. If you throw the heal-nade it will hit EVERYONE in its range, friend and foe alike. Makes you have to be a bit careful when using it.

Only way they should implement them is this way. Again, anything to suggest more skill and less spam.

Originally Posted by infected

also do you see any reason why prone should be excluded from ps2?

also i haven't had my hands on the game but do the infantry units (excluding the max) have a sprint ability? i know for example CS:GO doesn't have much for modern features like BF3, and i just can't stand playing CS:GO due to those features being absent.

They stated they might try out prone in betas, but IMO it will just slow down the game (which Im not stating is bad, just the seem to want to keep it fast paced action).

Last I knew no sprint, just the standard run/walk with the maxes run still being fastest.

aleksandrgrc · 2012-07-04, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by likwidneo

... The last thing we need is a Light Assault trooper with a jump pack and a bolt driver picking you off from impossible to reach vantage points at uber long distances..

if u think i wont find a way to get my infiltrator up there. your mistaken

, however a jump pack would be useful once i got up there, i must admit. but ill wing it. lol.

Furber · 2012-07-04, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by Zalmoxis

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. If it is a more Rock-Paper-Scissors style of gameplay, then THERE IS NO counter that always wins. The sole purpose of that style of gameplay is to prevent overpowered classes that everybody will play, and you are hoping that PS2 won't end up like that AND at the same time hope there won't be some OP class?

Try reading my post again (unless that's too much of a strain for you). I'm talking about how in some games, certain classes hard counter other classes to the point where it becomes more of a "choose this class only and always try to fight this class because you absolutely cannot lose unless you are beyond terrible". I kinda doubt PS2 will do this anyway

ThGlump · 2012-07-04, 01:43 PM

I understand why they want classes. To fix what they did wrong in PS1 when they did add more BR. Its not bad to have fixed classes, inconvenient but not bad.
But what they are trying to fix in soldier they broke in vehicles. In PS1 you had to choose what vehicles you wanted, as it cut off certs needed to make more universal soldier. Ppl without certs were gunners, passengers, or just fought on foot in the field.
Who will do any of that in PS2 when they can pull their own tank or aircraft with no consequence? (dont believe resources will matter if you dont throw vehicles carelessly away)

roguy · 2012-07-04, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by SnipeGrzywa

First off, the game currently there isn't "Planetside." Its the game Planetside turned into. When Planetside first launched, even when players started dinging BR20, there were "classes."

No there were not. At br20 everyone was HA/AV/ENG/MED/REXO, and if you didn't have that "class" you were gimping yourself.

Originally Posted by SnipeGrzywa

As far as seeing everyone take 2 hits and backing up, I noticed this alot to. Was driving nd insane! And its this way now because players have gotten away from the team based play due to lack of pop over the years.

Selective memory much?

It was ALWAYS like that. Take a few shots at a target, back up and reset the fight by healing/repairing. You were guaranteed to then win the fight against that wounded target if he couldnt do the same, therefore everyone BR17+ did it.

Originally Posted by SnipeGrzywa

Most relevant to me I will want to use a sniper rifle whenever outdoors. That requires me to use the infiltrator class, so now I have the weakest armor. O, and also can't have AV because I'm an infiltrator.

So after talking about so-called "classes", you want there to be just 1 again?

raidyr · 2012-07-04, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by infected

i'm currently curious if you guys are planning to add the suppression mechanic like bf3 has (and the exp rewards for suppressing enemies, as a role).

also do you see any reason why prone should be excluded from ps2?

I hope not because those are objectively bad mechanics.

i know for example CS:GO doesn't have much for modern features like BF3, and i just can't stand playing CS:GO due to those features being absent.

Ugh.

Noivad · 2012-07-04, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Higby

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

1. I was going to tar and feathered you, but since the line is so long, and I had more important things to do then wait for it, I decided to just hang you from the tallest tree, slow enough so as not to break your neck to see you squirm, choke to death, and pee your pants. After all your NC and must pay for your nasty deeds to the terran Empire.

But then I realized once dead you just respawn to torment me and the Terran Empire again. Enough Said on that.

2. I have been playing since early 2004 and I am NOT a bitter Vet.

3. I like the class / Role System you have come up with. In PS1 on the Emerald now Gemini Server I had a toon for the different roles, I precieved in game. I got all of them to BR 25, and have been uping them all to BR40 as I go. I only have the one CR5. If you added all their BR up, I would be over BR 150 - Not including all the toons I had on the werner and markov servers.

4. In PS2 you made it eaiser for me. You combined roles into classes so there are less of them. So instead of having a toon set up seperately, for Sniper, and Inflitrator, I can just have one. And now all my roles that I played on PS1 on several different toons can now be played on just 6. And all the points/xp from all the seperate ones will all go to one xp pool that I can draw from for all my classes. So your class system does simly things. And I thank you.

outsider · 2012-07-04, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

How is a leveless/classless system innovative? I seem to remember playing games back in the 90's that allowed that.
Both systems are old and choosing one over the other just comes down to design choice.

Yes my opening statement did say 20 years. so the 90's is accurate. What came to mind was UO ( which I started playing in 91 ), which had a very nice system.

I think we've gone as far as a class based system can take us and realised that it is an impass.

To be fair though PS2 is a hybrid of the 2, with a deeper tiered cert system in the background that should give longevity to playing those classes. The fact that there are classes is what will cause problems to a persons freedom to play various roles within their outfits. And success of the zerg will be further limited in the same way as other class based pvp games due to the fact that there will be an absence of healers.

I will concede your point though that classless / leveless is not innovation but it is a breath of fresh air. The same as PS2 will be a breath of fresh air that the MMO community needs.

NivexQ · 2012-07-04, 05:34 PM

"jack of all trades" didnt come around until they upped it to br25 really, and now its just stupid with br 40... I really like certs, but im waiting unt beta before I complain about anything

**Malorn** · 2012-07-04, 06:15 PM

Originally Posted by Higby

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

ESports will get you tarred and feathered.

The class system is great. The cert model just doesn't scale well at all. Forced specialization is a good thing.

Littleman · 2012-07-04, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by NivexQ

"jack of all trades" didnt come around until they upped it to br25 really, and now its just stupid with br 40... I really like certs, but im waiting unt beta before I complain about anything

Really, the only time someone was called a "one-man" army or "jack-of-all-trades" was when they had Rexo-HA-AV-Med-Eng, which could be purchased with points to spare at BR20. Tanks still had only a big cannon and a pea-shooter. They weren't designed to handle air-craft. Skyguards were only good against aircraft. Mosquitoes weren't equipped to take on heavy armor, they just farmed squishies and hunted down stupid infils.

Vehicles WERE classes. And they required multiple people to work... most of them.

But the Rexo-*Xwep-*Ywep-Med-Eng setup had no real weaknesses. They were prepared for everything and anything and never needed the aid of a specialized medic or engineer to keep fighting. They were a class unto themselves, and a hellaciously effective one, which is why they're still so common - it's the go-to setup.

* = weapon of choice, though the standard set was typically HA and AV.

I support a class based system because it doesn't force me to set up and level multiple characters to experience everything there is to do in game, while offering the specialization some here railing against the class system believes would be achievable by simply reducing the number of cert points one could have in PS1 which is frankly, the most ass-backwards thinking I can imagine on the subject, because we get classes anyway, only they're suggesting one class per toon.

I have five words for these people: **** you, you are ******ed.

I do agree classless systems are pretty awesome... in PvE environments. AI monsters don't bitch when killed by the flavor-of-the-month combo. Class systems are simply easier to balance in PvP and do in fact encourage teamwork. Complete self-sufficiency - like we see with the standard infantry set up in PS1 - only discourages team play and will NEVER promote it. There's just more power working as a group.

And before anyone jumps on the one-man tank opportunity, they cost resources and are said to be rather fragile if struck from the proper angle (the rear.) They'll need real support to keep them from becoming rolling tombs. See also: Reavers and mosquitoes. This time around, it's only fair the rolling cannon can be single-manned seeing as the aircraft retain their higher tier firepower.

Red Beard · 2012-07-04, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Higby

This is refreshing to see. I felt like I was going to be tarred and feathered by the community when we talked about classes at first. Now I can worry about getting tarred and feathered for something else!

You gown' get tarred and HAIRED with yer own haircut clippuns ! Yeeeeehaw!

ChipMHazard · 2012-07-04, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by outsider

Yes my opening statement did say 20 years. so the 90's is accurate. What came to mind was UO ( which I started playing in 91 ), which had a very nice system.

I think we've gone as far as a class based system can take us and realised that it is an impass.

To be fair though PS2 is a hybrid of the 2, with a deeper tiered cert system in the background that should give longevity to playing those classes. The fact that there are classes is what will cause problems to a persons freedom to play various roles within their outfits. And success of the zerg will be further limited in the same way as other class based pvp games due to the fact that there will be an absence of healers.

I will concede your point though that classless / leveless is not innovation but it is a breath of fresh air. The same as PS2 will be a breath of fresh air that the MMO community needs.

Oh, sorry I missed that.

Perhaps, although skill based games are still rare. Classless fps games have been popular for a long time and more and more games seem to follow that model, perhaps to bank on COD:MW's ability to customize your loadout, I know IW weren't the frist to invent that. Then there are games like Tribes: Ascend where you have a class based system really focusing on everyone having a particular role. Still seems like more of a design choice than anything else, but I might be wrong.

I agree, PS2 is going to try and mix the two at the expense of the freedom you had in PS, in theory anyway

I would still prefer that zerg scenario over allowing all players to say heal themselves. Then again we don't know just how appealing they will end up making medics, but I could certainly believe that more "zerg" players will pick purely combat oriented classes over support classes.

I don't know how fresh the idea of having a classless system really is in the FPS genre. Seeing as games like the COD:MW series have been around for years. Skill based, well have there actually been any FPS in recent history that had a skill based system?
I do agree that strict class based systems have dominated MMOs for a long time and in that respect I can see your point about the other systems being a breath of fresh air.
And I do agree that less strict class systems, offering more varity in gameplay, and skill based systems have become more popular in the world of MMOs.
But from what I've seen most MMOs use more of a hybrid class system.
Of course I could be wrong in that observation.