Israel - Page 4

Warborn · 2012-07-12, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by MightyMan

So: 1. look at the name of the sub-forum: "Political Debate Forum".
DEBATE

Me: *facts*
You: I REJECT YOUR FACTS BECAUSE THEY DISAGREE WITH MY VERSION OF REALITY

Debating!

Warborn · 2012-07-12, 04:12 PM

Except that Israel can't even stay within the confines of the lands taken from others and given to the soon-to-be Israelis. Conquered peoples having their lands taken from them isn't such a new thing. We have plenty of reserves here in Canada, especially where I'm from, where little Anishnaabek enclaves exist as semi-sovereign groups.

But even that isn't enough for Israel. Settlements continue to be built, Palestinians displaced, and the ultra-zionists pandered to with total disregard for the rule of law. So it's not just a historical territorial thing, it's an ongoing, active seizure of land by Israel and the repression of Palestinian territories to such an extent that nearly half of them are unemployed, and live on only a couple dollars a day.

**Malorn** · 2012-07-13, 02:35 PM

Meh.

Baneblade · 2012-07-13, 02:46 PM

I'm pretty sure I didn't see any.

ChipMHazard · 2012-07-13, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Lot of anti-semite bigots here.

There is, as with so many other topics, more than one side to consider.
I always find it odd when some people label those who criticise Isreal as anti-semite.
Then again those who support Israel shouldn't be labeled as pro-semite either.
Isreal isn't a theocracy, so...

Personally I don't feel any hate or love towards any country, including my own. I find it really hard to be surprised by any acts of cruelty, performed by any groups of people. Why? Because humans are human in nature, and unless the historical tomes I've read were all filled with lies I'm pretty sure that it' safe to conclude that we humans are right nutters.
I guess that leaves me with this surmise. Israel is just as ffed up as basicly every other country, all of them have skeletons in their respective closets, and just as unwilling to acknowledge it.

Warborn · 2012-07-13, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Lot of anti-semite bigots here.

Yes, and all **** who are critical of the Israeli government are also anti-semitic and bigoted against themselves. Stunning logic.

Figment · 2012-07-13, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Lot of anti-semite bigots here.

Just like we all hate America?

You're not really good at this criticaster analysis thing, are you?

You also do realise that critique on Israel is not critique on ****, right?

And even if you would hate Israel - which people here do not, they just think they misbehave - then you still wouldn't hate **** per se. Just because **** are in charge of Israel doesn't mean you blame every *** for the actions of the government of Israel. Maybe you didn't know this Malorn, but not only isn't every *** in Israel part of its government, but there's also **** living in other nations.

So unless you can find one quote from any person in this thread that says that **** in general, regardless if they're israeli or not, are somehow evil or can find any other degenerating term, then I think you owe some people here an apology for insulting them with supposed bigotry and supposed anti-semitism.

Sounds fair enough?

GODMOLLY · 2012-07-14, 01:10 AM

Yep, most of the people consider Israel to be the 51st state of USA.
Now the problem is that, considering Israel is in the size of new jersey, you can imagine what a nuclear bomb will do to us. Basically we will be trapped here with no way to escape, and those that do not die from the explosion (1.5 KM radius) will die from the fallout, which will stretch all over Israel.
That is basically why we are so afraid of Iran acquiring a nuclear bomb.
Now from what I know, the military technology of Iran in any aspect other then rockets, is close to boy scouts technology, which is mostly slingshots and cardboard boxes (AKA their military tech is very old, and cannot compete with any kind of western military technology). What they do have is a GIGANTIC number of soldiers, and the worst part, is that they are suicidal.
They have a whole legion designed for the purpose of running into mine fields, and clearing the mines with their own bodies. Yes, it is pretty insane.
And yes, claiming that they can hack something which belongs to the USA is stupid of them.

Exactly, I'm a little drunk right now but I want someone to challenge me regarding Iran. It could be anything from the policy's towards Israel/US, or the "claims" of "hacking" the RQ-170 (my expertise). Open to all challengers motha fuckers.

Oh yeah, I want you on Team GOD. We were ranked #1 outfit on the last Planetside, along with MANY other games you can google us. All these other "outfits" and other bullshit things are all fuckin stupid they all suck and will always suck they are all about numbers and not skill. We have members who are from all walks such as myg0t, the only reason why you interest me is because I have an arab on my team and he is sometimes defensive and it would be hilarious to watch you two fight and argue all the time. I will do anything to have you join my team. team god.net I'm dead serious.

Dart · 2012-07-14, 04:22 AM

So I'm really not going to get into the whole Israel vs Palestine 'debate' because, as with the actual conflict, neither side is going to adjust their outlook regardless of what the other says. I actually travelled to Israel when I was 17 on business specifically relating to the conflict. My visit was for research purposes so I spent much of my time talking with the citizens of Israel and trying to better understand their mindset having grown up myself in a liberal middle class UK family.

Reading this thread I'm reminded of my overwhelming memory from the trip; the overly politicised, combative and (to a greater or lesser extent) the aggressive nature of everyone I spoke to as soon as anyone mentioned the country or anything relating to Palestinians. I remember being at a cafe with a slight older Israeli man. We were playing Chess and chatting when he asked me what I thought of Israel. Wanting to be polite I was listing things I considered complimentary until I apparently hit a conversational land-mine;

Me: ".... Yeah, I'd like to come back and travel across the whole country. Everything is so close here, it's like you could walk from one side of it to the other!"
His previously warm demeanour instantly changes. He gives me the thousand yard stare.
Him: "And that's a good thing, is it?!"

One thing the Op said caught my eye a few pages ago. "Your (sic) not trying to kill me with aggressive arguments, that's refreshing". I think that's an unintentional insight into the typical - at least in my experience - mindset of an Israeli on this subject. Even the most friendly and otherwise calm people seem to become aggressive, almost militaristic in their expressions and their attitude. Personally, coming from a country where apathy is considered 'cool', at 17 I found this fascinating, if a little intimidating!

AshOck · 2012-07-14, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dart

One thing the Op said caught my eye a few pages ago. "Your (sic) not trying to kill me with aggressive arguments, that's refreshing". I think that's an unintentional insight into the typical - at least in my experience - mindset of an Israeli on this subject. Even the most friendly and otherwise calm people seem to become aggressive, almost militaristic in their expressions and their attitude. Personally, coming from a country where apathy is considered 'cool', at 17 I found this fascinating, if a little intimidating!

Just the psychological effect of constantly feeling a threat to your security/existence I suppose.

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

Who's fault is that? We all take L's (the lose.) Then negotiate with the exact people that won, and settle on their terms. Palestinians never did that.

There is no good or bad guys in war. Just wins and losses. If Japan did not take that L during WW2 they would be glowing till this day.

Taking a L doesn't make you a loser. Simply gives you a chance to heal, befriend your enemy, and move the fuck on in life.

Couldn't have put it any better myself

Neurotoxin · 2012-07-14, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

Lot of anti-semite bigots here.

Remember that anti-Semitic also applies to anti-Arab rhetoric. Zionists are anti-Semitic by nature.

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

There is no good or bad guys in war. Just wins and losses. If Japan did not take that L during WW2 they would be glowing till this day.

I disagree. All people have a right to self-determination within their own country. When it comes to imperialism, the aggressor is ALWAYS wrong. If one million soldiers from a foreign nation were deposited in Canada to wage war and try to take it over, how are they in the right in any way? How would the citizens of Canada be wrong to fight them off?

- - - - - -

That's it for now. Waiting for him to get back and bump this.

Dart · 2012-07-14, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

When it comes to imperialism, the aggressor is ALWAYS wrong.

Just to play devil's advocate, as a citizen of a former Imperial powerhouse; the world came an awfully long way under the rule of the British Empire.

AshOck · 2012-07-14, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Neurotoxin

I disagree. All people have a right to self-determination within their own country. When it comes to imperialism, the aggressor is ALWAYS wrong. If one million soldiers from a foreign nation were deposited in Canada to wage war and try to take it over, how are they in the right in any way? How would the citizens of Canada be wrong to fight them off?

That's gotta be the worst analogy to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict I've ever heard.

Neither Palestinians nor **** had a country when the conflict began.
The land in dispute was a part of the Ottoman empire for more than six centuries
and after that under British mandate from 1923-1948.
When the British left both **** and Palestinians had well established communities living side by side
and there was no formal agreement of how to divide the land. Obviously, war ensued.

So you see, it wasn't 1 million foreign nation soldiers against 35 million Canadians in their own established country.
It was more like 600k **** without a country against 1 million Palestinians without a country + six other Arab nations as allies.

Warborn · 2012-07-14, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Dart

Just to play devil's advocate, as a citizen of a former Imperial powerhouse; the world came an awfully long way under the rule of the British Empire.

The foundations of many of our formerly Imperial colonies are built on the mass graves of the indigenous populations. Imperialism royally fucked the situation the natives of North America, Africa, and elsewhere. As people who don't belong to those demographics we can kick back and relish in how nice it was for Britain or whoever to pave over some other nations with their own culture, but what if the Empire had cooperated and been something other than dominant and inhumane toward the people they conquered? Maybe now there'd be modern nations whose roots lie in the Cree, Lakota, Ojibwe, and similar peoples. Who is to say whether such a scenario would have been better or worse for the nations as a whole. Certainly it would have been better for the natives.

Dart · 2012-07-14, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Warborn

The foundations of many of our formerly Imperial colonies are built on the mass graves of the indigenous populations. Imperialism royally fucked the situation the natives of North America, Africa, and elsewhere. As people who don't belong to those demographics we can kick back and relish in how nice it was for Britain or whoever to pave over some other nations with their own culture, but what if the Empire had cooperated and been something other than dominant and inhumane toward the people they conquered? Maybe now there'd be modern nations whose roots lie in the Cree, Lakota, Ojibwe, and similar peoples. Who is to say whether such a scenario would have been better or worse for the nations as a whole. Certainly it would have been better for the natives.

I don't disagree with you but that's not human nature. Indistinctly humans do not cooperate with foreign peoples.