new lattice tweet from higby

[Malorn]

The prototype we are working on does not include any resource changes. Resource revamp is on the roadmap though, currently listed in the May timeframe.

Feedback is welcome, so if you have thoughts on how best to integrate a meaningful resource system into this design feel free to share.

[Lord Mondando]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The prototype we are working on does not include any resource changes. Resource revamp is on the roadmap though, currently listed in the May timeframe.

Feedback is welcome, so if you have thoughts on how best to integrate a meaningful resource system into this design feel free to share.

Its not just that mate, without an extra layer of strategy which gives small units something to do, bar be a tentacle of the zerg. You have to admit there are serious grounds for concern. I'm sure there's magical stuff going on behind the curtain and all, but I can only go on what I've seen. What I've seen, screams "zergfest or go home" to me. For large outfits and causal players, that's great. Kills the game if you fancy doing something a bit more strategic as my lot kinda do.

Resource revamp

Basic idea and its not entirely my own. We all stand the on shoulders of giants etc. Call it the DL Plan if it must be called anything.

All bases to some extent generate 'Raw' resources, which go towards warpgate (or whatever) in raw format, through pipelines, several points these come above the ground (there are several all ready so makes the job easier in terms of mapping) that can be destroyed/repaired depending on who you are (i.e in your own territory, you can't destroy them, too open to abuse), every tick so many resources go through them. Importantly there should be several 'nodes' throughout the map where these converge, getting more convergent and thus more important the closer you get to WG, thus taking one out deeper in enemy territory = greater effect. Hell why not have existing AMP stations as convergence points.

What comes out of WG (or have a refinery at the WG, whatever) - comes out 'ready to use' nannite format, as the raw material for all vehicles and importantly, player spawns. Have to be transported in something like ANTs (player or AI controlled), to bases in order for them to be able to actively spawn vehicles and units. Make these a single resource or split them up into player, vehicle and air. Undecided.

It also works if you switch them around, raw resources only by trucks, nannites by pipeline. Whatever. But it makes it more dynamic if you in some sense have to engage with both. Gotta defend the pipelines and defend/drive the trucks. A second level of stuff to attack/defend across the entire map. A logistic network. And the more effort and better defended your side manages to keep your logistics network, measurably easier to play the normal pew-pew take the point part of the game. Likewise, the better you attack your enemies, the weaker they get on the battlefield.

Especially if fights for bases are going to reduce to zergs whamming into each other, little subtle changes as a result of smaller battles behind the lines, will effect these battles.

Also for all those pilots complaining, hunt/defend the trucks and bomb/fly CAP around the logistics nodes, becomes the new fun thing to do away from all that nasty AA.

Very small stock trickle in both directions as default. Successfully defending pipelines and nannite transport vehicles to and from bases, drastically more efficient.

Furthermore incentivise this with plenty of certs/murdercash/learninpoints and you'll find people happily guarding nodes and driving/defending the trucks.

Tada. Metagame.

More to come, but that's the barebones of it.

[basti]

Originally Posted by Lord Mondando

Its not just that mate, without an extra layer of strategy which gives small units something to do, bar be a tentacle of the zerg. You have to admit there are serious grounds for concern. I'm sure there's magical stuff going on behind the curtain and all, but I can only go on what I've seen. What I've seen, screams "zergfest or go home" to me. For large outfits and causal players, that's great. Kills the game if you fancy doing something a bit more strategic as my lot kinda do.

Resource revamp

Basic idea and its not entirely my own. We all stand the on shoulders of giants etc. Call it the DL Plan if it must be called anything.

All bases to some extent generate 'Raw' resources, which go towards warpgate (or whatever) in raw format, through pipelines, several points these come above the ground (there are several all ready so makes the job easier in terms of mapping) that can be destroyed/repaired depending on who you are (i.e in your own territory, you can't destroy them, too open to abuse), every tick so many resources go through them. Importantly there should be several 'nodes' throughout the map where these converge, getting more convergent and thus more important the closer you get to WG, thus taking one out deeper in enemy territory = greater effect. Hell why not have existing AMP stations as convergence points.

What comes out of WG (or have a refinery at the WG, whatever) - comes out 'ready to use' nannite format, as the raw material for all vehicles and importantly, player spawns. Have to be transported in something like ANTs (player or AI controlled), to bases in order for them to be able to actively spawn vehicles and units. Make these a single resource or split them up into player, vehicle and air. Undecided.

It also works if you switch them around, raw resources only by trucks, nannites by pipeline. Whatever. But it makes it more dynamic if you in some sense have to engage with both. Gotta defend the pipelines and defend/drive the trucks. A second level of stuff to attack/defend across the entire map. A logistic network. And the more effort and better defended your side manages to keep your logistics network, measurably easier to play the normal pew-pew take the point part of the game. Likewise, the better you attack your enemies, the weaker they get on the battlefield.

Especially if fights for bases are going to reduce to zergs whamming into each other, little subtle changes as a result of smaller battles behind the lines, will effect these battles.

Also for all those pilots complaining, hunt/defend the trucks and bomb/fly CAP around the logistics nodes, becomes the new fun thing to do away from all that nasty AA.

Very small stock trickle in both directions as default. Successfully defending pipelines and nannite transport vehicles to and from bases, drastically more efficient.

Furthermore incentivise this with plenty of certs/murdercash/learninpoints and you'll find people happily guarding nodes and driving/defending the trucks.

Tada. Metagame.

More to come, but that's the barebones of it.

Congratz

You triggered my brain.


The ANT! YAY!


Thats one of the many aspects of PS1 that is missing. Stuff to do that is useful and could really decide a battle, but isnt extremly annoying to do and not nessecary to do 24/7.

I really like your basic idea of connecting ressources and the ant together, especially the pipe stuff, as they give small squads somethign else to do that would impact the battle at the frontlines.


But it shouldnt become annoying or absolutly mandatory that someone does this stuff.



Anyway, my stuff:

As you already posted, raw resources would be generated, and pumped to the warpgate via pipelines. Cut a pipeline connection (by taking out a pipe node / destroying a generator), and bang whatever resources that would have to go through that node would just not come through, means less resources for the enemy. You could propably add some kind of cooldown, means after a node is down for some time, the resources try to find another way to get back to he warpgate. If there isnt any then they are lost for sure. But if there is one, well then they take that route.

At the warpgate, resources would be refined into useable stuff. Then ANTS would need to pick the refined stuff up and bring it forward to bases.

Thats pretty much in line with your ideas. Heres what i think should be rather different:

There would be still Aero, Mecha and Infantary resources, BUT only Infantary resources remain to be something a player themself has. Aero and Mecha would become resources a base/Outpost has! In addition to that, a new resource: Nanites. Nanites are auto generated at the gate, there is always enough of them so the gate could never run out.

Whenever someone spawns a vehicle at a base, he uses nanites and the resource needed for that vehicle (ground = mecha, air = aero, usual stuff, nothing new here). But said resources would come from the pool of resources that the base has. That means in order to allow your faction to spawn enough tanks and air at a certain base, people would have to drive ants from the gate to that base, to fill up that base and keep the supply high. If a base runs out of a certain resource, you wouldnt be able to spawn vehicles of that type at that base.

If a base runs out of nanites alltogether, then the base would power down, means no spawning of players or vehicles at that base at all. After a certain time, the base would become neutral, allowing whoever wants to grab that base. This is pretty much the same way power worked in PS1.

[Thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The prototype we are working on does not include any resource changes. Resource revamp is on the roadmap though, currently listed in the May timeframe.

Feedback is welcome, so if you have thoughts on how best to integrate a meaningful resource system into this design feel free to share.

Could you ask the bigwigs if you could post a full map of Indar using this new Lattice-like connection system ?

It would be really good to see a larger picture in order to think of metagame additions once we can see the entire map and see how it would play out ?

At the moment all we see is the South east corner.

Let us help you guys by discussing the pros and cons, as you can see from this thread, it's not a bandwagon, but rather people discussing everything maturely so would be a good place to start looking at this.

I want to talk about resource revamp being incorporated into this, but I need to see how the rest of the map looks (to see how all other bases are connected, hence my request.

[Babyfark McGeez]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The prototype we are working on does not include any resource changes. Resource revamp is on the roadmap though, currently listed in the May timeframe.

Feedback is welcome, so if you have thoughts on how best to integrate a meaningful resource system into this design feel free to share.

I think for a start a global resource system would encourage people to visit different continents more. Maybe even tie the territory control into the +XP% modifier in a way.

Also (though currently minor would be more prevalent with changed resources):
i don't like being "forced" to fight at certain locations because i prefer some resources over others. So how about to split resource gain into all three types per hex? Emphasis could still be put on one of them, but it wouldn't be "worthless" to fight there for some (Might even think about just merging all three resource types into one actually).

[Thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by Babyfark McGeez

I think for a start a global resource system would encourage people to visit different continents more. Maybe even tie the territory control into the +XP% modifier in a way.

Also (though currently minor would be more prevalent with changed resources):
i don't like being "forced" to fight at certain locations because i prefer some resources over others. So how about to split resource gain into all three types per hex? Emphasis could still be put on one of them, but it wouldn't be "worthless" to fight there for some (Might even think about just merging all three resource types into one actually).

No no no I like your idea of having each "Base" give all 3 resources, so that people stop favouring certain bases over others due to the resources they provide, but I dont agree we should band them all together into one resource because right now its good to know what you can do with each.

Although, Having them all as one resource means if you say pull Loads of MBTs, you can't turn around and jump into an ESF when you run out of Mechanical resources, but do you want to restrict players like that ?

[DviddLeff]

Going to ponder the resource issue and get back to you Malorn, but I definitely think that the lattice system by restricting targets more than the hex system is the way forward to focus fights and make them last longer.

Now what do we want from the resource system?

1. Be a straightforward system.
2. Provide alternative goals for players.
3. Restrict the amount of tanks/aircraft/MAXs a player can use.
4. Not make it impossible for an empire with 0 territory to fight.

At the moment the system succeeds in 1, 3 and 4 but has minimal impact on strategic goals that players make which is a shame.

I would also like to see it impact on cut off territories more, making it impossible to carry on a defence without some sort of resupply, either through being reconnected or player brought (eg by the old ANT).

Personally I feel I have too many resources - I rarely fly and usually keep my ground vehicles for 15+ minutes so those resources never impact me, and the only reason infantry ones do is because I insist on keeping my character fully stocked on C4, grenades and both AI and AV mines and even then I rarely pull MAX armour.

I really like the idea of using the pipelines as a part of the resource system, potentially with sabotage being a part of it. I also wonder about getting the players to set up resource generators in certain locations, which again can be destroyed/disabled. However with any of this behind the lines stuff the risk is it becomes as annoying as back hacking and gen holds of the original game.

[o Solei o]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The prototype we are working on does not include any resource changes. Resource revamp is on the roadmap though, currently listed in the May timeframe.

Feedback is welcome, so if you have thoughts on how best to integrate a meaningful resource system into this design feel free to share.

I'll admit, I was skeptical of lattice, but this looks quite promising! (Added bonus, makes navigating on the ground a ton easier.)

Very much looking forward to seeing this in live.

[artifice]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The prototype we are working on does not include any resource changes. Resource revamp is on the roadmap though, currently listed in the May timeframe.

Feedback is welcome, so if you have thoughts on how best to integrate a meaningful resource system into this design feel free to share.

Why not have the outposts feed the nearest facility with raw resources if they are connected and the facilities outputs refined resources to the parts of the continent they are connected to? Then let the warpgate send the refined resources it collects from all the facilities to all three continents. If the warpgate gets cut off from the facilities, the other two continents are cut off from the resources provided from the facilities.

[Tatwi]

Originally Posted by artifice

Why not have the outposts feed the nearest facility with raw resources if they are connected and the facilities outputs refined resources to the parts of the continent they are connected to? Then let the warpgate send the refined resources it collects from all the facilities to all three continents. If the warpgate gets cut off from the facilities, the other two continents are cut off from the resources provided from the facilities.

Honestly, SOE should do this,

1. This game needs a "crafting system", because it "gives people something to do" that is personal, yet community driven, thus creating a significant amount of enjoyable emergent game play.

IT'S NOT WHAT YOU THINK....

2. Give each outpost (not facility, just outposts) a unique type of "resource" that can only be acquired by owning the outposts. No matter where a player is when when she is online, so long as her empire holds the outpost, she will gain X amount every X minutes. Players would get a bonus of X amount of a specific resource for capturing or defending the associated outpost.

3. Much like Guild Wars 2's automatic crafting component inventory system, the "resources" (which could actually be called parts or components or whatever they like) would automatically accumulate in the players inventory over time.

4. Every cert and weapon unlock could alternately be obtained by using combinations of the various "resources". Players would know what resources they need to acquire simply by mousing over the cert/item. Each combination would use 4 to 16 different resources, requiring various quantities of each (SOE could make all these using an automated script, which would only take a few minutes of "developer time"). A player can hold up to X amount of each resource in his inventory (with members perhaps getting a bonus).

5. Vehicles and infantry consumables no longer use resources - a lock out timer for each is sufficient to accomplish the same result.

6. Facilities will continue to grant other benefits.


This "resource system" gives people the "meta game" of each outpost in the world having potential meaning to them, depending on the items they wish to unlock. Sure people could use Station Cash or Cert Points to unlock these things, but they could also play the resource game to get these "bonus unlocks", so to speak. Furthermore, because each outpost in the game would supply a unique resource, some of which would be common in many really good certs/unlocks, not having access to some of these resources may well be incentive for people to fight over gaining (and maintaining) access to them.

This concept also has the bonus of being both dead simple to understand, while also complex enough to have a lot of replay value. Players will simply look at their certs/unlocks, see what resources they need with a mouse over, and with a simple click a pop up will tell them where on Auraxis they will need to capture and hold in order to acquire these resources.

Why muddy the system with convoluted delivery routes that don't accomplish anything that can't be accomplished by simply capturing and holding land? "Complex, not complicated" is good game design.

Note: I suggested this months ago and in doing so I am standing on the backs of the giants who designed the Chu Gon Dar Cube / Reverse Engineering / Collections / Beast Master / and other systems of Star Wars Galaxies. Credit where credit is due.

[Fenrys]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The prototype we are working on does not include any resource changes. Resource revamp is on the roadmap though, currently listed in the May timeframe.

Feedback is welcome, so if you have thoughts on how best to integrate a meaningful resource system into this design feel free to share.

You could fill neutral areas with structures that spawn strategic caches one every so many minutes/hours. The caches could be captured king of the hill style, and provide some temporary bonus to whoever is nearby when the cache is captured.

Things a cache might contain:

-Resource extraction deployment patch. Infantry with the right certs can deploy a nanomagicwand that will create a destructible resource extractor. Each friendly extractor in the area contributes to the size of the resource tick coming to each empire from that area, as well as giving xp to the characters who deployed the extractors. There might be extractors from multiple empires in the same area at the same time. Each area has a maximum number of extractors that may be deployed at once.

-For 60 seconds after the capture, the ability to spawn a supply truck that you can drive to a friendly base/outpost that will increase the resources given per tick from the base/outpost delivered to for the next hour.

-One or more customizable Heavy Battle Tanks, common pool 3 seat tanks. Let bidding for them begin when the capture finishes, a 60 second window when the terminals are active and players can set a maximum they are willing to pay to get a tank. The actual price of a tank increases as more people announce they want tanks also. A large enough force would end up paying 750 for their basic heavy tanks (but everybody can still get a tank), while a smaller one could maybe save a few hundred resources on each basic frame and apply that savings toward getting their tanks equipped with better armor/engines/treds/brakes/2ndary weapon upgrades like AA or AV specific.