Three long overlooked problems with this game. - Page 2

Hmr85 · 2013-06-26, 10:05 AM

Put back in the SOI and put some AI controlled AA drop pod guns on top of Primary facility's. I would link them to a Generator that's in the middle of the base and hard to get to. Any drop pods that come down in the middle of the SOI would be shot out of the sky.

If the enemy wants to drop into the base they would have to destroy the generator that hidden in the middle of it in a very defensive location. This would solve the problem IMO.

wasdie · 2013-06-26, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Hmr85

Put back in the SOI and put some AI controlled AA drop pod guns on top of Primary facility's. I would link them to a Generator that's in the middle of the base and hard to get to. Any drop pods that come down in the middle of the SOI would be shot out of the sky.

If the enemy wants to drop into the base they would have to destroy the generator that hidden in the middle of it in a very defensive location. This would solve the problem IMO.

"solve" is a strong word but it's definitely a great mechanic to counter it.

However it would be boring getting shot up by base AA. I think that the "Squad deploy" should always drop you outside of the SOI as well as the instant action. The squad beacon can drop you anywhere at your own risk.

Hmr85 · 2013-06-26, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by wasdie

"solve" is a strong word but it's definitely a great mechanic to counter it.

However it would be boring getting shot up by base AA. I think that the "Squad deploy" should always drop you outside of the SOI as well as the instant action. The squad beacon can drop you anywhere at your own risk.

Maybe so, but don't drop inside the base till the generator is down. Its enforcing the SOI and giving "small Spec op groups" a goal to go after at the same time. I really don't see anything wrong with it tbh.

Just throwing out ideas.

Qwan · 2013-06-26, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by wasdie

The problem with this line of reasoning is that it makes base defenses useless. You're calling for the defenders to actually leave their battlements and entrenched positions to fight OR be forced to constantly have people dropping behind all of their defenses. That begs the question why we have bases at all.

Right now defending a base is just fatiguing. It's far too active and it's lead to all sorts of problems with the meta game. Each battle right now is too chaotic and lacks the flow which was an essential part of Planetside 1's gameplay which is sorely missing from this game thanks to these kind of mechanics.

The current system doesn't promote territory control as well as it should which lessens the point of why we have a lattice system and eventually continental locking. There needs to be a better front line aspect and having defenders leaving their defense and attackers bypassing defenses is not helping.

Others have suggested a SOI but I still don't know if this is enough given the ability to steer your drop pod with near pinpoint accuracy.

I feel ya wasbie but you have to be ready to leave you confert zone to keep your base secured. As long as there is still enemy in the area, you really cant call it secure, once that last sundy or man/women is gone there will be no more spawn beacons and no more squad deploys. Now the next phase begins (on indar) breaking the link, which will stop jerks from back hacking. On Esimir and Amerish, I could see your issue being a problem, no lattice, back hacking becomes a issue. But to be honest there really is no way to secure a base unless you break the link connecting the enemy to the base. The squad spawn beacon is a tool that we have to deal with when defending a base. If I see a bright red or blue line shooting in the sky I make it a point to get to it and take it out. Now the squad deploy used from the main map is different, its cool down is like 4 min, not a lot you can do about that either.

I mean to me the beacon and squad deploy are just a tactic, If i can get a beacon up close you your base, I immediatly tell my squad to use it to get behind enemy position. I also tell them to use squad deploy to do the same. So when you say defending a base is impossible because of these tactics, its hard to swollow because is there is a sundy or a link, or a squad leader still running around your area it really not secured.

Dodgy Commando · 2013-06-26, 11:54 AM

I don't have a problem with drop pods. It can be countered by destroying the beacon, stopping an attack just as fast as it started. Drop pods are pretty obvious too, it's quite possible to get the jump on an enemy who has just landed. It is also a big give away that there may be a beacon in the area to go destroy.

The only issue I have here is that beacons can indeed be placed in areas that are difficult to reach. Perhaps tuning this down a bit (flat surfaces only; beyond a certain angle it won't deploy; create no deploy areas for antennas, rocky spires and the like) and increasing the range at which it is visible (or not, considering what I have just mentioned) could help.

There is also the possibility of the SOI system like in PS1 to prevent excessive dropping on top of a facility, but the whole concept of drop pods is to bypass enemy lines. However, the idea of the SOI being controlled by a generator or similar objective could be an interesting alternative to the arbitrary no-deploy zone, if such a feature were implemented.

I'm not against drop pods in PS2, although it can be a bit cheap at times. A possible fine tuning could help, but I think they fit in pretty well. I certainly don't find them game-breaking.

I'm not sure I agree with your view on reinforcements, though I don't often play small squad ops. Don't forget the system works both ways and also tries to provide a good fight for everyone. Too bad if your small ops fail as a result of overwhelming numbers. The point is to face enemy opposition, surely? Its been retuned several times; maybe it needs some more work to reach the best balance so as to not over-reinforce one side in a matter of seconds.

As for Redeploy, I would tend to disagree from experience. It doesn't allow you to skip the enemy frontline like drop pods. Whether being able to redeploy a few hundred metres instantly is good for the game in any other aspect, I'm not sure. Its pretty good for hasty defence I suppose, but I get annoyed that sometimes I can't redeply somewhere I want to, even if it appears to be within range.

wasdie · 2013-06-26, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Qwan

I mean to me the beacon and squad deploy are just a tactic, If i can get a beacon up close you your base, I immediatly tell my squad to use it to get behind enemy position. I also tell them to use squad deploy to do the same. So when you say defending a base is impossible because of these tactics, its hard to swollow because is there is a sundy or a link, or a squad leader still running around your area it really not secured.

But that's a terrible tactic. Why have base defense at all? It ruins any flow of battle and is just not fun to defend againt in the long run and is a major reason why people hate the bases in this game. You cannot defend against people drop podding behind you or on your flanks constantly.

In Planetside 1 we had to find the AMS and destroy it, which was fine, but the counter-attack didn't require the defenders to risk having people constantly drop behind the line from magical drop pods that could drop them right into their base. At the worst you had a galaxy drop people behind the line or your back door hacked. Right now you can't even have an active defense because leaving your battlements means the enemy can easily get right into your base.

This tactic is bad game design and is really hurting the flow of battle which has a direct impact in the overall metagame.

wasdie · 2013-06-26, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by Dodgy Commando

There is also the possibility of the SOI system like in PS1 to prevent excessive dropping on top of a facility, but the whole concept of drop pods is to bypass enemy lines. However, the idea of the SOI being controlled by a generator or similar objective could be an interesting alternative to the arbitrary no-deploy zone, if such a feature were implemented.

I know that's a squad beacon's whole point and I'm disagreeing with that entire tactic and philosophy. It renders base defenses useless and frustrating and puts less emphasis on coordinated pushes and more emphasis on whack-a-mole by finding the beacons placed throughout your base while constantly fighting troops falling from the sky with no real counter other than to find the beacon. Of course you also have to deal with the squad deploys too.

On paper it sounds great but in practice it's extremely frustrating and ruins what could be excellent battles with emphasis on zones of control and terrain control.

Goliith · 2013-06-26, 12:51 PM

I dont't hate Squad Beacons as much as I hate Squad Deploy, but the beacon needs to be larger, or at the very least have a larger hit box, as you need to be RIGHT on top of it to hit it many times, and often the beacon itself doesn't render, only the beam of light will.

Squad deploy is the meat and potatoes of evil strategy IMHO.

The other night I was in an Outfit platoon, and what we were doing is the 4 Squad leaders get into Racer chassis Mossies, and head towards where ever we want to control. Enroute all 44 other members of the platoon hit 'Redeploy' to be on the spawn menu without the counter.

THE SECOND the Squad leaders get to the location, all 44 members of the Platoon hit Squad deploy and you now have 44 coordinated players on the roof/s of your base.

We did that for about 2 hours+ and only ever failed to immediately overrun the facility if there was already a larger emplacement of enemy troops ready to counter it.

Was it fun? For us, yes it was awesome. If I were a defender of an assault like that however, I probably would have just left the continent or logged off because its a nigh unstoppable assault of raining manpower that can control their target location of landing.

Reinforcements needed isn't as terrible as at least you appear in the respawn room of your location, but I feel that any redeploy respawn should have a 15-35second respawn timer at minimum to slow down how quickly the zerg can surge across the map.

Perhaps a dynamic 'Reinforcements Needed' respawn mechanic? The higher the presence of your empire in a 'Reinforcements Needed' location, the longer the redeploy timer?

Ex. You hold the crown, but are being sieged there, Your empire population is 18% while the the enemy population is 72% with 10% of third faction. In this example your redeploy timer would be what it is now as default.

Now then, Many people reploy for reinforcements and the population swings to be 58% Your faction, 42% attackers and the third faction have entirely pulled out. In this situation, defenders are nearly as necessary, so the respawn timer would be in the 20-50second range *ONLY FOR PEOPLE 'REINFORCING'* Normal in base respawns would remain as they are.

Lucidius · 2013-06-26, 01:22 PM

"Just destroy the beacon"

That's as simple as:

1) Get in render distance of the beacon (which isn't very large)
2) Killing the current squad leader
3) killing the entire squad before the current squad leader can pass it off to some one else (Kill potentially 11 other people within 10-20 seconds)
4) Kill the beacon before any of those people you just killed respawn

I mean, i'm alright but that's a pretty tall order.especially when you're considering the implications with platoons. Doing that 4 times in a row consistantly? And even if you do do all of that. The squad leader can just ride an ESF over as la and jump onto your roof, crap out another one and they're all back again? AND they get to pick where they spawn in the base?

Why do attackers get to spawn where they want and on top of things they can't normally get to and defenders are stuck in the one predictable spawn? In the case of sunderers, why can you spawn on the enemies spawn and destroy it by yourself? I can't think of a single game where you can spawn in the enemies spawn and spawn camp them.

wasdie · 2013-06-26, 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by Lucidius

Why do attackers get to spawn where they want and on top of things they can't normally get to and defenders are stuck in the one predictable spawn? In the case of sunderers, why can you spawn on the enemies spawn and destroy it by yourself? I can't think of a single game where you can spawn in the enemies spawn and spawn camp them.

I see generators go down in facilities all of the time because of a squad beacon placed near it.

This is just as bad as the ability to deploy an AMS next to a capture point. Makes no logical sense at all.

Zadexin · 2013-06-26, 02:47 PM

Squad beacon is pretty good imo. Although I think it should cost infantry resources to both PLACE AND USE. Why do we get all these free drop pods? It should cost a few dozen infantry resources to be able to pod in. Also the crap like placing beacons INSIDE spawn rooms and pain tubes needs to go away IMMEDIATELY! That is a clear bug that needs to be fixed.

IMO the real problem is with squad deploy. Instead of drop podding onto your squad leaders head it should just spawn you from the closest friendly spawn point. You should still be within a hex or a lattice node away. Then you can at least pull a vehicle that may help out in the battle.

Lastly, I suggested this before, there should be some kind of deployable item called a 'Spawn Jammer". Something that you can buy and put out that creates a small bubble where no enemy can spawn. Similar to the AMS bubble effect. And have it follow the same placement rules as spawn beacons. This creates a defensive front line that the OP was talking about. It also makes another objective for attackers to seek and destroy, something that I think this game sorely needs. Less camping spawns, more blowing stuff up.

SerethiX · 2013-06-26, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by Zadexin

Lastly, I suggested this before, there should be some kind of deployable item called a 'Spawn Jammer". Something that you can buy and put out that creates a small bubble where no enemy can spawn. Similar to the AMS bubble effect. And have it follow the same placement rules as spawn beacons. This creates a defensive front line that the OP was talking about. It also makes another objective for attackers to seek and destroy, something that I think this game sorely needs. Less camping spawns, more blowing stuff up.

That's how I like my eggs!

The spawn jammer should be limited 1 per hex or base, prevent sundys from letting people join in a skill able range and make the drop pods move to the outer border of it.

Really nice idea!

SerethiX - www.serethi.de

Redshift · 2013-06-26, 06:06 PM

We need an SOI, even if it just covers the base, it's so bloody annoying to constantly get hammered from behind by droppers on the roof.

Controling the roof is a big deal in several base types, you should need to gal in to do that rather than just droppod on it

bpostal · 2013-06-26, 06:41 PM

Originally Posted by Redshift

...you should need to gal in to do that rather than just droppod on it

I think this right here is the main issue with the under utilization of the Galaxy in PS2. You previously needed a galaxy to gain any kind of coordinated vertical advantage such as dropping on a roof, now you just need to get one guy close enough to the drop zone.
I know the Sunderer already has too many roles for it to be utilized as simple gun truck but it's really the only vehicle I can see being used as an electronic warfare vehicle. Slap that 'SOI Generator' that somebody was talking about earlier in the thread onto a bang bus instead of ammo or whatever and have it toss up a few hundred meters of SOI.
The more I think about it, the more it seems a natural pairing with the AMS. Sure, now people can't drop on your shit but you'll be throwing up a huge signal flare to anyone who can look at the map "Here's my bus!"

**Malorn** · 2013-06-26, 07:30 PM

The flow problems that drop pods and reinforcements needed create have not gone unnoticed. I'm looking into changes in these areas to address these problems but cannot provide details or ETAs.

Please keep providing feedback! We do pay attention to your posts, even though we may not reply to most of them.