Three long overlooked problems with this game. - Page 4

wasdie · 2013-06-28, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by Ralek

OP talks about logistics a lot - beacons and squad deploy are exactly that - logistic tools. There are obviously a few issues with them though.

I define logistics of moving materials from one point to another. A squad spawn beacon ignores the movement part and just teleports players whenever the beacon is placed.

The biggest issue this game has is the lack of logical logistics. Instead it's whack a mole with spawns popping up unpredictably all over the place and the ability for troops to deploy themselves behind enemy lines.

The only logistical part is when the guy places the spawn beacon down. They have to physically move to that point. Once it's set they can spawn an unlimited amount of people down, all of which have a decent radius of where they can steer their drop pod. This is now used to bypass defenses, spawn on top of strategic locations, and generally ruin the flow of battle.

I've been in plenty of battles where the enemy isn't coming from a direction, they are spawning right ontop of the objective you're supposed to be defending. That's not logistics.

wasdie · 2013-06-28, 12:41 PM

I would be up for adding counters to squad deploy beacon drops. Something that could deny the ability for drop pods to drop right ontop of over within a certain radius of important objectives.

An engineer placed counter that could prevent drop pods from landing within their radius, a generator powered counter that protects a base from drop pods falling right ontop.

I would like to see active counters, not just passive things. If the squad beacon isn't going to go away (and there are enough arguments to keep it in the game despite me not liking the mechanic) at least give us the counters. I would love to see people have to fight for their ability to use a squad beacon by having to take down a certain generator or actively hunt out deployed counters. It could add a lot to the support element of this game thus making the metagame a much more rich experience.

I know that's a lot of work for the devs, but it could go a long way to addressing a few issues with this game.

Rahabib · 2013-06-28, 12:51 PM

Originally Posted by wasdie

I would be up for adding counters to squad deploy beacon drops. Something that could deny the ability for drop pods to drop right ontop of over within a certain radius of important objectives.

An engineer placed counter that could prevent drop pods from landing within their radius, a generator powered counter that protects a base from drop pods falling right ontop.

I would like to see active counters, not just passive things. If the squad beacon isn't going to go away (and there are enough arguments to keep it in the game despite me not liking the mechanic) at least give us the counters. I would love to see people have to fight for their ability to use a squad beacon by having to take down a certain generator or actively hunt out deployed counters. It could add a lot to the support element of this game thus making the metagame a much more rich experience.

I know that's a lot of work for the devs, but it could go a long way to addressing a few issues with this game.

I like drop pods myself. I do think they can be abused. Why not just have a life span for the spawn beacon that runs out well before another one can be deployed? Say, it only works for a few minutes instead of 30, then you must wait a long time place it again (so instead of 5 minutes its like 15-30). So you can take it out or just wait until it goes out if its in an impossible to counter position (which IMO, is very rare). Especially if a sphere of influence is in the game I think you need insertion of some sort.

Another option is to make them use a full 750 resources (you must be maxed out) wanna use C4? not if you wanna lay down that spawn beacon. I think a lot of people will think twice about using them. Make them use up all of your resources if you want to use it.

I just think we can find a solution that works rather than scrapping everything and turning it into PS1.

Stanis · 2013-06-28, 01:04 PM

Add teleporters and jump pads to the beacon mechanics.

They make the intervening distances irrelevant.
They might look cool - but like wall design and clutter where there should be clear firing arcs for defenders the game was set up based on roving 'contested' gameplay or 'matches'.

I abuse the beacon and drop buttons because it works.
It's cheese.

Rothnang · 2013-06-28, 02:29 PM

I like the idea of drop pods a lot, but they are so powerful in terms of achieving superior positioning they really shouldn't be something you can just rain on a base willy nilly.

What I would really like to see for squads would be an orbital support system that basically works by looking at all the kill XP the squad earns (base XP, no further advantages for premium) to fill up an orbital support pool for that squad. When it maxes out you can call for pod drops, bombardment, supply drops etc, but you need to earn these options by fighting.

That way if you just make a squad of 2 people they might be able to earn orbital support every once in a while, but making a full squad is much more desirable because it earns orbital support more often. It also means that if you're just spawncamping a hand full of guys you're not going to earn orbital support very quickly, while if you're in a huge battle you'll get the support much more often - which is consistent with how a military organization would allot limited support to its troops - the people in the thick of the action get priority.

Artalion · 2013-06-28, 02:46 PM

Another option is to make them use a full 750 resources (you must be maxed out) wanna use C4? not if you wanna lay down that spawn beacon. I think a lot of people will think twice about using them. Make them use up all of your resources if you want to use it.

750 resources is too extreme, but making a spawn beacon dependent on infantry resources isn't a bad idea.

I want to point out that Spawn Beacons and Squad Deploy options aren't just good for offense, but can be used for defensive purposes. If your spawn is being camped by liberators, a couple drop pods is a great way to clear the air. Even a near miss is something for the pilot to think about. If you are surrounded by AMS sundies, a drop pod kamikaze strike is an effective way to break a siege. In many cases, a squad beacon is the only way to break a spawn camp siege.

The problem, in my view, isn't one of ability, but one in timing. The timers on squad beacons and squad deploys are too short.

Let's not forget why squad deployments were added. They were added so that if a person just joined a squad or if they got separated from their squad, they could join their squad immediately. That being said, it is unlikely that the player will need to use it for this more than once every thirty minutes. Doing this would cut the waves of drop pods by half, while still leaving it intact for the occasional lost soul, or for special occasions.

Squad Beacons are something which I would balance very delicately, because they are a rather risky thing to do. They attract a lot of attention and they are pretty easy to destroy. I don't mind the fact that they are placed on antennas, because it takes a lot of skill for someone to do that kind of thing.

The real problem is that switching squad leaders resets that count to zero. I think the game should remember how long it last was since you deployed on a squad beacon, no matter who the squad leader is. Furthermore, the squad leader should inherit the squad beacon timer from the last squad leader. I also liked how it used to be, when you had to resupply in order to get the squad beacons if you were suddenly switched to squad leader.

Concerning Galaxies:

I love Galaxies. I love flying them, I love riding in them, and I would use them more often. The problem is that there are only two places where you can get them currently: tech plants, and warpgates. On a place like Esamir, where there is only one tech plant, that generally means you have to use a warpgate.

An easy way to increase their use as a squad transport is to allow players to spawn a Galaxy from each major facility, not just tech plants. It makes sense to have them at major facilities, because that is where you expect the most people to be.

What I like about my suggestions is that it doesn't require the Devs to add new items to the game. It requires tweaking some timers, installing some galaxy terminals, and adding some additional code to make sure that existing things aren't abused. Adding new game items is shiny, but it also takes a lot of time to design, test, implement, and balance it.

wasdie · 2013-06-28, 03:18 PM

I like those ideas of increasing the timer and inheriting and existing squad beacon and timer.

I still believe the game would benefit greatly from some sort of no droppod zone.

**Malorn** · 2013-06-28, 06:44 PM

Wanted to share some of the drop pod thoughts and get your feedback. This is the general direction of where we're going with it, but as always it could change so no promises.

First, no current plans to remove drop pods. They're cool and a fun experience, particularly for new players. We would like to make them less annoying and follow the general battle lines better so we can have this cool and fun mechanic that augments the battle flow instead of disrupting it.

For drop pods in general looking at making them come down faster and making them a bit less maneuverable, so the net result is that they'd feel more frentic and get you to the action a bit sooner. You'd be able to steer to nearby cover but not move all that far from the origin point.

For instant action drop pods we are looking at making it so defenders always come down near the center of the facility, while attackers always come down somewhat randomly in a doughnut-shaped ring on the outside of the facility. This ring is roughly 150m from the center and differs by facility type, so the radius would be bigger for the large outposts and facilities than a small outpost. In PS1-terms, it's sort of like having an invisible SOI for attackers and having defenders come down in the center.

The goal is that if you are a defender you don't have to worry as much about drop pods coming down in the middle of your base or the very top of a tower and bypassing your front line (unless there's a beacon/squadleader, which you can see and destroy/kill). And as an attacker you don't have to worry as much about drop pods coming down by your AMS or tanks and blowing them up. In both cases, the drop pods are your reinforcements and unlikely to be an immediate threat.

This should also be better for those dropping down as they are less likely to be immediately killed upon landing.

And for pilots, with drop-pods a bit more predictable you should have a pretty good idea of where not to fly to avoid getting hit by one.

wasdie · 2013-06-28, 07:13 PM

When you say instant action drop pods, does that also apply to the "squad deploy" drop pod?

I understand the beacon would be pretty much the same.

**Malorn** · 2013-06-28, 07:25 PM

Squad deploy functions the same as a beacon, only without the beacon.

shaql · 2013-06-28, 07:26 PM

no, wasdie, when he says "instant action drop pods" he means "instant action drop pods", as the stuff he mentions when talking about the IADPs concerns IA-specific stuff, like dropping on a specific facility, not point, and squad deploy and beacons drop people on a point. When he's talking about all drop pods, he says "drop pods in general".

goddamnit, why is today's youth unable to read...

Assist · 2013-06-28, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

For instant action drop pods we are looking at making it so defenders always come down near the center of the facility, while attackers always come down somewhat randomly in a doughnut-shaped ring on the outside of the facility. This ring is roughly 150m from the center and differs by facility type, so the radius would be bigger for the large outposts and facilities than a small outpost. In PS1-terms, it's sort of like having an invisible SOI for attackers and having defenders come down in the center.

That'd be way better than what we have now. I don't like the idea of limiting the movement capabilities, but when you explain it like that I think it would help a lot.

wasdie · 2013-06-28, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by shaql

no, wasdie, when he says "instant action drop pods" he means "instant action drop pods", as the stuff he mentions when talking about the IADPs concerns IA-specific stuff, like dropping on a specific facility, not point, and squad deploy and beacons drop people on a point. When he's talking about all drop pods, he says "drop pods in general".

goddamnit, why is today's youth unable to read...

Well I'm only asking because the Squad Deploy without a beacon could just act like an instant action to get you in the same hex following the same rules as the instant action.

I don't like the Squad Deploy function right now. That's part of the issue. It could have the same rules as instant action. The only way you can get your squad mates right on you is if you place the beacon. That would be an improvement.

EvilNinjadude · 2013-06-29, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by wasdie

Well I'm only asking because the Squad Deploy without a beacon could just act like an instant action to get you in the same hex following the same rules as the instant action.

I don't like the Squad Deploy function right now. That's part of the issue. It could have the same rules as instant action. The only way you can get your squad mates right on you is if you place the beacon. That would be an improvement.

Exactly. You squad deploy on the leader, the game looks which base the leader is at, and then goes through the instant action sequence for that base.

I agree with these statements, spawn beacons and squad deploy allow attackers more access to the base than defenders in the current implementation.

As for squad beacons... they're hard to see since they don't always render. A lot of people also ignore them, which is straight up dumb but not the game designers' fault. I think a beacon should be the only way to drop on a specific point on the map, and that the beacon should be a lot more visible than it is now. I'd say easily always visible at several hundred meters.

PredatorFour · 2013-06-29, 06:37 AM

Originally Posted by Malorn

For instant action drop pods we are looking at making it so defenders always come down near the center of the facility, while attackers always come down somewhat randomly in a doughnut-shaped ring on the outside of the facility. This ring is roughly 150m from the center and differs by facility type, so the radius would be bigger for the large outposts and facilities than a small outpost. In PS1-terms, it's sort of like having an invisible SOI for attackers and having defenders come down in the center.

Malorn, this is what should happen at every base regardless of isntant action! People shouldn't be allowed to put beacons within the SOI.