It is as i feared... no deploy zones.

[Malorn]

Originally Posted by DviddLeff

Malorn, I presume that tying the no deploy zone to a generator was considered? Any reasons why it was not implemented - personally I think it would add some great depth to the game and more targets for squads.

The purpose of the NDZs is to ensure timing between defender spawns and attacker spawns and prevent checkmate moves to capture a base by putting a spawn point directly on top of it or between the defender spawn and the capture point. Distance to travel from a spawn is a force multiplier and NDZs standardize it and give a clear defender advantage (which is why it doesn't affect defenders).

If we give the ability to disable the NDZ then we have three issues.
1) More places for a defender to defend, which makes it harder for them, especially if outnumbered.
2) If the NDZ is dropped, the fight is basically over since the attackers can now magnify their force even more. And if they managed to take out the generator then they probably already have more than the defender.
3) The ability for defenders to recover the situation is severely reduced, as now they not only have to secure the point and remove the AMS, but they must also retake the generator.

It's effectively more win for a winning side and a pure defender disadvantage to do that. By not having them removable we ensure consistency of spawn distance and give defenders better chances against a numerical superior opponent and better chances at recovering.

The fact that defenders can place AMS inside the NDZ means there's more objectives: For the attacker, the objective is kill the defensive AMS. For the defender the objective is to place them. Once those are gone the playing field from a spawn distance standpoint is even. Attackers have flexibility in spawn placement while defenders have the ability to fortify with closer spawns.

Generally speaking all of the NDZs should be roughly the distance from the defender spawn to the objective(s). They are custom to every outpost due to every outpost being different, so we may have some outposts that need tweaking if isn't quite right.

[Mordelicius]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The purpose of the NDZs is to ensure timing between defender spawns and attacker spawns and prevent checkmate moves to capture a base by putting a spawn point directly on top of it or between the defender spawn and the capture point. Distance to travel from a spawn is a force multiplier and NDZs standardize it and give a clear defender advantage (which is why it doesn't affect defenders).

If we give the ability to disable the NDZ then we have three issues.
1) More places for a defender to defend, which makes it harder for them, especially if outnumbered.
2) If the NDZ is dropped, the fight is basically over since the attackers can now magnify their force even more. And if they managed to take out the generator then they probably already have more than the defender.
3) The ability for defenders to recover the situation is severely reduced, as now they not only have to secure the point and remove the AMS, but they must also retake the generator.

It's effectively more win for a winning side and a pure defender disadvantage to do that. By not having them removable we ensure consistency of spawn distance and give defenders better chances against a numerical superior opponent and better chances at recovering.

The fact that defenders can place AMS inside the NDZ means there's more objectives: For the attacker, the objective is kill the defensive AMS. For the defender the objective is to place them. Once those are gone the playing field from a spawn distance standpoint is even. Attackers have flexibility in spawn placement while defenders have the ability to fortify with closer spawns.

Generally speaking all of the NDZs should be roughly the distance from the defender spawn to the objective(s). They are custom to every outpost due to every outpost being different, so we may have some outposts that need tweaking if isn't quite right.

Malorn, thx for posting. There are several problems with this line of logic:

1) There is a sort of false equivalency between the defender spawn and the attacker spawn. The defender spawn is invulnerable and (for the most part), allows players to shoot from within. The attacker spawn is very vulnerable and easy to take out. Hence if it blows, the action stops abruptly severely disrupting the battleflow.

Under a 1:1 combat strength ratio, spawn camping is not really a problem since the attackers have to look out for both the control points and the sunderer spawn, while the defenders only have to concentrate on the control points.

2) Sunderers can't simply be parked out in the open. The primary pressure for sundererer placement is not just proximity to the spawn but getting a good cover. The current base base designs doesn't provide enough of these covers.

If the Sundy has 10x the HP (just saying, not that they should have), then yes, they can be parked out there. But atm, park a Sundy exposed and it will go down so fast.

3) Under a 2:1 attacker:defender ratio, the spawn will be camped regardless, with air and tanks to boot. Just on Ti alloy alone, the south spawn door can be effectively locked down by Prowlers spamming HE from the SW ( I can already hear the Prowler spammers from Waterson chuckling )

The issue at hand is more of spawn camping and base design that is conducive to that spawn camping. Hence, trying to solve those with a NDZ is not the applicable approach.

The simplest solution to problems introduced by the NDZ, as we've been discussing before, is tying the generator the NDZ. I don't think the NDZ alleviates spawn camping. Spawn camping happens when attackers have the advantage of air, mechanized and foot soldier numbers (bombarding defending players with stacked DPS as they exit the spawn).

The best solution imo is the Jamming Sunderer. I obviously don't know if that can be implemented or feasible to the Devs but just throwing it out there.

My feedback from another thread:

Originally Posted by Mordelicius

Post your GU12 feedback.

Here's mine:

GU12 is easily the worst update they've ever concocted. It's pure gameplay interference. The Developer hands are where they shouldn't be. If there is a 4th faction, I'd call this 5th faction interference. Of course I'm talking about the


No Deploy Zone for Sunderer AMS - There are so many things to say about this that I don't know where to really start.

In basketball, I remember there was a 3-second rule where the defender can't camp under the basket if they aren't defending anyone. If they do, the ref will count to 3. If they are still there, they get a warning. Henceforth, on each and every iteration of this violation, the offense gets a freethrow. This No-deploy zone we got is permanent with no counter. You get the idea if that was implemented permanently in basketball.

On top of that, it's also a bad precedent (a tantamount to a slippery slope). The amount of community resistance they received didn't matter (watchout, they are trying to pass off a VS helmet as NS as well). All the reasoning in the world couldn't stop it. All the 2 votes against : 1 vote for ratio didn't count either. Another sad aspect is that they've been pushing this for months and yet they couldn't offer an iota of rationale thrust behind it: not a single word!

It's so bad that looking for the advantages out of it is like looking for the positives, of say, Malaria.

Planetside 2 is about massive combat on an epic scale, we've heard about it and it's all true up to now. This artificial 'mechanic' inhibits the potential of every single fight. I'm gonna fire off one by one the effects of this so far

Medium-Long Range Battles - Most of the fights have now degenerated to medium-long range fights. As i've predicted in previous threads, the defenders already know where the opposition is coming from. All they have to do is point their weapons in the general direction (especially in a tower). And with the base designs (lacking covers) and low TTK, it either bob up and shoot or charge and downright get massacred. And then the sunderer blows up. Which leads us to the next point:

Walk & Wipe - It's not just the size of the No-deploy zone is bad, its' the lack of cover. Sunderers end up in the most awkward places far away from the points. This is especially true in tower fights. Two days ago, we wiped 3 times on the tower, I just logged out in disgust. There's nowhere to put the sunderers: either put it in an exposed building and repair spam or stash it away in a faraway cover.

Anytime we even get close to getting two points, the Sunderers will explode and the whole frontline will collapse in a complete failure cascade (the attacker will then regroup in tedium while the defenders wait in boredom repeating this cycle ad nauseum) Again, this point leads us to:

Shortened Battles - The battles are much shorter now. The long, protracted meatgrinder fights are gone. I call these zones the no-fun zone. No good fights ever come out of it. (I've also read, they are shortening the cap times in PTS, so this probably part of a new PS2 theme).

The other day, the Vanu were so confident they will take Peris amp station during an alert (outnumbering us at least 2:1), that they've been talking trash. They took A point and was sure to capture the base when we got reinforcements. Just like that in one single push, they wiped on A. And as a movie director would say "Cut!", the action stops, almost eerily. We moved to the walls, while they try to push in new sunderers from the tower satellite to no avail, it was already over. It's all easy pickings. The battles are turning to Wack-a-Sundy. This point finally lead us to

Battleflow Disruption - combine all that and you got a very uneven battleflow. Walking, Medium/Long range shoot outs, Sundy hunting/defending, Wiping, regroup tediously. Repeat the short fights cycle.

For a game that prides itself on epic, large-scale battles this is not a step backward but a tumble one floor downward. This limited the gameplay potential by that much. All the creative things event that players do or happen under zone has been restricted. Remember the suicide Sundies (storming in out of nowhere) that has about 15% chance of sticking/deploaying under heavy fire, you won't see that anymore. All the unpredictable stuff that can happen, an anything goes feeling is gone. And it's as predicted on my previous posts about this. All those potential, exciting things that can happen without the No-deploy zone are all gone.

The Developers should be giving us tools to fight each other. Not unnecessary, unwanted, unrewarding mechanics that restricts us from fighting, by limiting combat scenarios. I honestly don't believe the Developers play their own game enough. If they did, they won't even consider implementing this, much less bulldoze it through much community resistance (They ought to just discontinue the Roadmap program. It's just a source of pain for both sides. It promulgates lofty expectations, and player feedback over there are worthless and wasted when they simply overrule on a whim).

They could have given us Jamming Sunderers that actually do the same thing but actually can be interacted with by the players while giving the clashes more depth.

MLG related? - I've thought and thought what could be the driving force behind this. Initially, I figured it was to prevent spawn camping. But then again, in an even 1:1 fight, the attacker is disadvantaged because, defense spawn point is invulnerable and players can shoot out of it, while a Sundy/Spawn beacon can easily be destroyed. In a 2:1 fight, will it make much of a difference? No, the current base designs naturally conduce spawn camping, so it's unavoidable.

So what could it be the reasoning behind this? Since, the Developers have been mum about it for months and from the beginning, and basically offering nothing (I know they will say 'they don't have to'. Fine), i'll just go and guess then.

The closest thing I've come up is that this is MLG related. I'm really anxious to see the Battle Islands. First thing, i'll do is get a Sunderer and check all the no-deploy zones and check if it's perfectly calibrated to the surroundings and base designs. In a 48 vs 48 with many bases, i'd imagine a Sunderer parked too close will be advantageous to the attacker. There would be a shortage of players and there won't be enough DPS to take it down. Whereas in the live, continental servers, there is a much higher player limit, and DPS isn't an issue.

As a final summary this no-deploy 'mechanic' is a self-inflicted wound for PS2. They've literally garroted their own advantages and what separates them from the pack.

Some posts about the No Deploy Zones before it was rammed through with poor consideration:

http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...t=55611&page=2
http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...t=55611&page=4
http://www.planetside-universe.com/s...ad.php?t=53073

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The purpose of the NDZs is to ensure timing between defender spawns and attacker spawns and prevent checkmate moves to capture a base by putting a spawn point directly on top of it or between the defender spawn and the capture point. Distance to travel from a spawn is a force multiplier and NDZs standardize it and give a clear defender advantage (which is why it doesn't affect defenders).

If we give the ability to disable the NDZ then we have three issues.
1) More places for a defender to defend, which makes it harder for them, especially if outnumbered.
2) If the NDZ is dropped, the fight is basically over since the attackers can now magnify their force even more. And if they managed to take out the generator then they probably already have more than the defender.
3) The ability for defenders to recover the situation is severely reduced, as now they not only have to secure the point and remove the AMS, but they must also retake the generator.

It's effectively more win for a winning side and a pure defender disadvantage to do that. By not having them removable we ensure consistency of spawn distance and give defenders better chances against a numerical superior opponent and better chances at recovering.

The fact that defenders can place AMS inside the NDZ means there's more objectives: For the attacker, the objective is kill the defensive AMS. For the defender the objective is to place them. Once those are gone the playing field from a spawn distance standpoint is even. Attackers have flexibility in spawn placement while defenders have the ability to fortify with closer spawns.

Generally speaking all of the NDZs should be roughly the distance from the defender spawn to the objective(s). They are custom to every outpost due to every outpost being different, so we may have some outposts that need tweaking if isn't quite right.

Why is increasing the spawn time on Sunderers not on the table?

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Baneblade

Why is increasing the spawn time on Sunderers not on the table?

Increasing spawn timers for both attackers and defenders, at both fixed and Sunderers, should be on the table. Obviously there are ways to do this such as a multiple SCU approach (taking down 1 or 2 SCU increases spawn timer, all 3 shuts it off).

Or, deploying 1 sunderer in a certain radius is a 30 second respawn, 5 makes the respawn as short as it is now.

[Livefire]

I think the no deploy zones need to be removed immediately, this is a fundamental interruption in game play strategy that was designed by the players for the players. Players want a sand box battle field that we can figure out what works and what does not, we do not like restrictions on what we can and can not do with are vehicles and weapons. Design a base and then give us are space to figure out how to make it work. Do not make random restrictions that make no sense like this vehicle "magically can not deploy here". We do not want are battles and strategy's guided by game Devs.

[Jax Blake]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The purpose of the NDZs is to ensure timing between defender spawns and attacker spawns and prevent checkmate moves to capture a base by putting a spawn point directly on top of it or between the defender spawn and the capture point. Distance to travel from a spawn is a force multiplier and NDZs standardize it and give a clear defender advantage (which is why it doesn't affect defenders).

If we give the ability to disable the NDZ then we have three issues.
1) More places for a defender to defend, which makes it harder for them, especially if outnumbered.
2) If the NDZ is dropped, the fight is basically over since the attackers can now magnify their force even more. And if they managed to take out the generator then they probably already have more than the defender.
3) The ability for defenders to recover the situation is severely reduced, as now they not only have to secure the point and remove the AMS, but they must also retake the generator.

It's effectively more win for a winning side and a pure defender disadvantage to do that. By not having them removable we ensure consistency of spawn distance and give defenders better chances against a numerical superior opponent and better chances at recovering.

The fact that defenders can place AMS inside the NDZ means there's more objectives: For the attacker, the objective is kill the defensive AMS. For the defender the objective is to place them. Once those are gone the playing field from a spawn distance standpoint is even. Attackers have flexibility in spawn placement while defenders have the ability to fortify with closer spawns.

Generally speaking all of the NDZs should be roughly the distance from the defender spawn to the objective(s). They are custom to every outpost due to every outpost being different, so we may have some outposts that need tweaking if isn't quite right.

One of the major problems that I have with NDZ is that you have completely removed an attack strategy from the game. What is the purpose of the GSD sunderer now? The harasser I can understand as it gets you inside and allows you to farm infantry but the sunderer is useless.

If you rush to a base in order to hack out a sunderer what do you do then? You pull the sunderer outside the safety of walls and place it where? If that sunderer you have moved away from the vehicle spawn point dies how do you pull another one? Odds are your forces guarding the vehicle spawn are dead which often times includes the capture point, or you hold the vehicle spawn but can't keep a sunderer alive because you're forced to move it so far away from where the bulk of your forces are trying to hold the capture point and it's out in the open.

How do you attack an amp station without superior numbers? At times the game already feels like a zerg fest and you've made it so that you HAVE to have superior numbers in order to take a facility. Previously you could have a Sunderer up inside of a tech plant or amp station and still fail on your attack if you didn't protect them. Now you take the inside of an amp station and because your sunderer can no longer be placed inside your reinforcements are forced to run from greater distances than the defenders from their spawn room. It will always be a greater distance because there is no place you can safely put a sunderer near the capture point that will allow your reinforcements to get there in time. You can only rely on spawn beacons / medics / squad deployments for so long. Just this weekend I was in a platoon that tried to assault an amp station only to fail because the numbers grew to the point that it was impossible to defend without a sunderer on the inside. Is the only strategy to bring more people than them?

The way things are it feels like the goal is not to attack and defend your place on the capture point but to attack and camp the defenders into the spawn point so that the defenders can't get out. If these biodomes comes in it forces attackers to bring in even more numbers since you can no longer use combined arms, air will not be able to suppress and these massive walls on esamir means that armor can't suppress either (for the record I love the esamir changes.)

I also have to ask about why base timers are being changed again? The zergs already move strong and shorter timers do nothing but encourage more of that gameplay, the more people you have together the quicker you can get through all the bases and all that wonderful capture xp that zergs seem to enjoy. I shudder to think about what the TR Connery outfits are going to do with 7min timers on major bases and I think an even shorter one on biolabs.

[SternLX]

Originally Posted by Jax Blake

One of the major problems that I have with NDZ is that you have completely removed an attack strategy from the game. What is the purpose of the GSD sunderer now? The harasser I can understand as it gets you inside and allows you to farm infantry but the sunderer is useless.
.. snipped

The GSD sundy tactic is still a valid one. We kept doing it to NC on Connery a couple nights ago at an Amp station. Drop off nearly a whole squad in there with half of them MAXs with the rest being a mix of Engy's and medics and you clean it out right quick. Mean while Sundy driver was making a trip to get more people.

I've taken to Tank mining just behind the shield in amp stations because I have seen a lot more use of GSD as of late.

[Shooter]

Unfortunately bases have not been designed for NDZ's (and removing them for defenders and other fixes suggested here are changes to suit a bad idea and will only cause further problems).

Tired of having to park the sundie in the open when attacking, only to have it blown up by a lib, or whatever, as soon as I have run half-way to the objective.

If NDZ's suit MLG play keep them for the Battle Islands.
They aren't a solution to indefensible bases.

Mordelicius has nailed it in his post I HOPE THE DEVS HAVE READ AND RE-READ IT at least a couple of times!

Also agree with Greenthy and many other posters here about how NDZ's are just wrong wrong wrong!

So you want to adapt the game to suit MLG... fine... save the changes for the Battle Islands.

[Baneblade]

Originally Posted by Shooter

Tired of having to park the sundie in the open when attacking, only to have it blown up by a lib, or whatever, as soon as I have run half-way to the objective.

Then why don't you stay and defend it?

[Zidaya]

Originally Posted by Malorn

The purpose of the NDZs is to ensure timing between defender spawns and attacker spawns and prevent checkmate moves to capture a base by putting a spawn point directly on top of it or between the defender spawn and the capture point. Distance to travel from a spawn is a force multiplier and NDZs standardize it and give a clear defender advantage (which is why it doesn't affect defenders).

If we give the ability to disable the NDZ then we have three issues.
1) More places for a defender to defend, which makes it harder for them, especially if outnumbered.
2) If the NDZ is dropped, the fight is basically over since the attackers can now magnify their force even more. And if they managed to take out the generator then they probably already have more than the defender.
3) The ability for defenders to recover the situation is severely reduced, as now they not only have to secure the point and remove the AMS, but they must also retake the generator.

It's effectively more win for a winning side and a pure defender disadvantage to do that. By not having them removable we ensure consistency of spawn distance and give defenders better chances against a numerical superior opponent and better chances at recovering.

The fact that defenders can place AMS inside the NDZ means there's more objectives: For the attacker, the objective is kill the defensive AMS. For the defender the objective is to place them. Once those are gone the playing field from a spawn distance standpoint is even. Attackers have flexibility in spawn placement while defenders have the ability to fortify with closer spawns.

Generally speaking all of the NDZs should be roughly the distance from the defender spawn to the objective(s). They are custom to every outpost due to every outpost being different, so we may have some outposts that need tweaking if isn't quite right.

I like the idea behind NDZ but I think the main issue lays with the lack of cover for sundys.

Perhaps a key spot for the return of the cloak bubble.