Warning, very unpopular opinion! Why kill-cam desperately needs to return - Page 14

tricome · 2013-09-10, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

This exactly illustrates why the whole kill-cam discussion has deteriorated over the years in some epeen crap.

It's precisely this stunning arrogance and hardcore gamer elitism that has rotten not only this but other communities as well. No matter how you look at it, COD and BF are great multi-player fps series that have become popular for a very good reason. Bashing it because it make you feel more superior is telling more about you than about these games.
Kill-cam did not "ruin" COD, nor did it "ruin" BF and there's really no reason to assume it will "ruin" PS 2.

Thats your opinion which your entitled to.

However I disagree and say killcam did ruin both of those games and now there nothing more than kiddie shooters dumbed into oblivion to appeal to the masses.

You won't change my opinion no matter what wall of text you post.

Blynd · 2013-09-10, 09:17 AM

You will never get the community to back kill cams because they are a lazy way of playing you dont really learn anything about the game from them just where the guy who killed you is.

**Muldoon** · 2013-09-10, 12:07 PM

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

Blynd · 2013-09-10, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Muldoon

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

If that were the case then restricting them for BR1-5 would be enough to get people to get the hang of things any further use is plain game breaking.

ChipMHazard · 2013-09-10, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Muldoon

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

I agree that they are indeed, like both you and Rolph state, very good tools for teaching new players how to play, although I still don't want them in the game "permanently". I would really like to see you guys work out something that helps improve the new player experience as I keep seeing new players who just get killed over and over without really knowing where from (Mostly because I'm a right camping bastard). I would be fine with seeing something along the lines of what Blynd, and maybe others, suggested.
Is this something you guys have been discussing around the office?

Wahooo · 2013-09-10, 03:14 PM

Sure a kill cam CAN help new players learn a bit. But is it "Desperately Needed"?

There are a lot of things that are needed, like a way to get new players into mentor type outfits/platoons. There is a list of new player helpers already started, something from the game's side to help the new players connect with coaches. Of all of the aspects this game has that are more complex than a "traditional" shooter exactly where you died from is pretty low on the list for what new players need to know.

I remember reading a guide for the original Rainbow Six, as I tried the multi-player and got wrecked so bad. They basically said think about real life if you want to survive. If you just saw a teammate (or two) get shot standing at a window are you really going to go over an poke your head out that window to see what killed them? Of course not.

See what I see from a lot of new players is, not only do they go marching up to that window to see what is out there, it wasn't after a teammate died but after THEY died. Get shot, then go back to that same spot and stand still and look around. Really? I'm supposed to agree to a kill cam because people like that are quitting from getting killed over and over? Kill cam isn't really going to help them, they are still going to get killed over and over just with more variety.

My 7 year old daughter gets it. She may not be that great at doing it, but she saw me die last night and said "Daddy you weren't doing like you told me. You stopped moving and weren't looking all around."

MAYBE I could concede to giving it to new players up to BR5 or so, but that sucks too will those players that relied on it rage when it goes away? Those who need a crutch don't walk very well without it.

**Muldoon** · 2013-09-10, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Is this something you guys have been discussing around the office?

Not since beta.

retief · 2013-09-10, 07:08 PM

Suggestion: add a "killcam" located on your corpse that is looking in the direction of the damage that killed you with no zoom. Basically, you see the same view you would have gotten had you been looking directly at whatever killed you. The camera does not move or follow your killer.

At close range, if the guy that killed you hasn't moved, you see who killed you (this shouldn't be a problem -- if the guy is standing in the open after shotgunning you, he isn't trying to be sneaky). You can definitely tell if there is a guy camping a corner or the top of a rock. Against explosives, you see where the explosive was (you don't see the person who planted the explosive or the person who set it off). Against a sniper, you see the general area that the sniper killed you from, but since the view is from the location you died and is at normal zoom, you won't know exactly where the sniper is, and you certainly don't follow the sniper if he relocates. Overall, you get the same information that you would have gotten had you been looking in the right direction and saw the shot's tracer. Presumably, good players are already looking in the right direction, so it doesn't help them at all. However, it gives newer players an idea about where they should be looking.

Overall, it penalizes the "find a good hiding spot and get a 20 man killstreak because no one looks up" playstyle and helps newer players figure out where they are being killed from without giving players who are smart enough to look in the right direction any more information.

Rolfski · 2013-09-10, 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Muldoon

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

We actually had quite some useful suggestions throughout this topic to get around the issues these hardcore vets have, like making kill-cam available for newer players only.

Problem so far is that:

People don't seem to care that much, at least in this forum, about improving the new player experience. Personally, I see this learn-it-the-hard-way-or-take-the-high-way mentality as one of it's biggest threats for the long-term survival of PS 2. An Eve Online-like skill wall just won't work for a relatively light weight game as PS2 imo.
Many hardcore players are just blind raging spastic and plain allergic for any form of kill-cam. The amount of non-constructive, downright hostile and borderline insulting comments I so far have had to be put up with in this discussion (mind you, this is supposed to be a "friendly" and "mature" community), should be a good indicator for any SOE announcement on a kill-cam feature.

So as much as I agree with you for it being a potentially excellent learning tool, I also don't expect SOE to have the balls for it to reconsider it.
Unless you get back-up from the hardcore community first, that is.

What I do hope to get out of this discussion though, is some openness and willingness for tools & mechanics that help close the ever-growing skill gap somewhat for newer and casual players.

Wahooo · 2013-09-11, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

[LIST][*]People don't seem to care that much, at least in this forum,
Bullshit. Have you ever visited the new player questions forum? A lot of help there. Currently there are several threads around the same age as this one ABOUT helping new player. Because we think kill cam is crap, has nothing to do with how I feel about helping new players, nor most of the people in this thread.[*]Many hardcore players are just blind raging spastic and plain allergic for any form of kill-cam. The amount of non-constructive, downright hostile and borderline insulting comments I so far have had to be put up with in this discussion (mind you, this is supposed to be a "friendly" and "mature" community), should be a good indicator for any SOE announcement on a kill-cam feature.[/LIST
Bullshit again. There has hardly been any blind rage nor that much insult considering your inability to actually have a point through this whole mess. I've played games with them, I just don't like them, I have reasons for not wanting it in this game, which i've listed repeatedly. The best youve been able to come back with is to tell me i'm wrong? WTF At this point you I think you ARE trolling for insults to make yourself feel better congrats for that, you've succeeded. I just haven't typed 90% of what i've wanted to say when it comes to that.

I can't believe I keep coming back to this thread.

Ertwin · 2013-09-11, 01:53 AM

Originally Posted by Rolfski

Problem so far is that:

The problem so far is that every time anyone suggests a solution that isn't kill cam, you dismiss it out of hand. It is pretty clear that kill cam isn't an acceptable solution to any of the problems you've brought up, so start looking for other solutions rather than flogging the meat off the dead horse.

Lucidius · 2013-09-14, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by Muldoon

While killcams will probably never come back, I gotta say I miss them (I know I'm in a really small minority on this issue). We had killcams when I started working on the game. My new player experience was excellent because of them. I was able to learn very quickly what I shouldn't be doing in our game, in addition to how I was getting killed. So I would argue that they are a really good learning tool.

Why not make them exclusively available to low BR characters or players with new SOE/PS2 accounts?

Baneblade · 2013-09-14, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Lucidius

Why not make them exclusively available to low BR characters or players with new SOE/PS2 accounts?

Because then the foot is in the door for it to be pushed further. Why invent a game mechanic that will only make it harder for new players to learn the game and puts them right back where they started when they 'graduate'.

Rolfski · 2013-09-15, 12:57 AM

In preparation for the BF4 beta I just started playing BF3 again and in no way I experienced a single situation where the kill-cam was "giving away position" or "ruining the tactical game play". This whole kill-cam rage is just thin-foiled crap, can't make anything else out of it.

monkjunk · 2013-09-15, 01:52 AM

Kill cams kill tactical sniping, and that is it. I often use a silenced longshot bolt action for overwatch/flanking/scouting. I use the longshot because it has a high standard muzzle velocity, so when it is silenced it is still relatively high. Even so, mid-long range silenced sniping is a whole new game. Even a 50m distance between two different targets can mean that you cannot take both instantly, as you must zero in for each one individually due to the large amount of drop compared to the standard amount. Drop is not consistent either, so although you'll eventually work in an eye and be able to go "Two mildots should be enough... *Bang*...... got 'em!" alot of the time you'll need a test shot at something away from but at the same distance as the target to see where you need to aim. So, silenced sniping has not just got a 100 cert cost, but requires you to learn how to snipe all over again, and when you work for so long to be proficient at moving unseen and sniping with a silenced weapon, having a target come up behind you for no other reason than he saw you on the kill cam is real bullsh*t.

Now, I don't normally camp. Sometimes I do so I can recline back and essentially play "duck hunt", because that slow paced gameplay can be fun at times, but on a whole I don't normally do it. My original outfit, Omega Company, focused on small squad work, and now in AG7 we're implementing the same ideals. Normally when we'd attack, say, an amp station we'd go for the targets that were out of the way or unexpected, perhaps a shield generator on the opposite side of the base. So, out of my four man squad three would go in the room and overload whilst I would move between overwatch positions, staying at each for maybe a minute or more, depending on what angles I have and how many targets I can see.

Remembering that I hardly ever get seen and I use a silencer, I generally only die when I run into an enemy whilst on the move who I can't take down with my commisioner or I move into the room because my team got downed. Also remember that I often stick to positions for a minute or so, although I am constantly moving between them. If they were to implement kill cams, someone who would otherwise not have detected me due to my use (and subsequent training) of a silencer and hiding/stealth techniques would be able to get the jump on me because they saw me on the camera. Tell me that's fair. Tell me that although I went to all this effort to stay hidden, not engage targets until I had a clear shot, learn how to snipe all over again and find a nice concealed spot to stay in for about a minute before moving, it's fair that he knows all the ins and outs of my current position.

Kill cams killed sniping in BF3. It would happen all the time. you get sniped, you see where he was so you grab a jet or something and go rip his ass up. It nerfed snipers even more than they had been already, and the BF# sniper class was already pretty terrible.

You want to balance kill cams? Give the killer the exact position of the kill-ee in relation to him/her for the next 5 minutes after they spawned. Although this would be unbalanced... But the one who has been killed knowing the exact position of the killer is not?

EDIT: Also, sneak attacks do not have to be a one use thing. If you snipe someone from 5m away and they don't see you, chances are they'll think it was a distance shot and look elsewhere. A kill cam would show them that no, in fact you were right behind them.