WDS awareness?

**Malorn** · 2013-10-21, 12:46 PM

What I've distilled out of this is:
1) rewards aren't motivating enough
2) world is not persistent enough for holdings to be meaningful
3) nothing to help outfits stand out in what they accomplish

The goal of WDS long-term is a victory condition in a world that is always changing, and where any one victory is short lived. We want it to be a way that outfits can compare strategic impact and get some recognition for their efforts and to develop some server pride and community to achieve that victory condition.

Intercontinental lattice adds to persistence and player agency but the obvious goal (capture every territory in the game) is not realistically achievable, nor can contribution towards it be measured. That's where WDS comes in. Its a strategic scoring system in its infancy. In the future I expect it will have points for continent locking, cracking, and sealing, with a possible instant victory if the unattainable is attained. I'm trying to sort out how best to score contribution of an outfit and identify good rewards. What would you like to see?

GeoGnome · 2013-10-21, 01:19 PM

Quick Answer if you are looking for something that can be implemented in the near future that people will like: Group XP boosts. That way if we win an award, we get a boost for the whole team who won.

Originally Posted by Malorn

What I've distilled out of this is:
1) rewards aren't motivating enough
2) world is not persistent enough for holdings to be meaningful
3) nothing to help outfits stand out in what they accomplish

It's not as much that the rewards you are offering aren't motivating, there are a million rewards for killing or taking bases, it's just that there is no meaning to the capture itself, thus the rewards have no meaning. It's like everyone in your town winning the lottery, it's nice when it happens, and now you are all millionaires, but the meaning of it is diminished somewhat because Everyone you know, now has the same reward.

Originally Posted by Malorn

The goal of WDS long-term is a victory condition in a world that is always changing, and where any one victory is short lived. We want it to be a way that outfits can compare strategic impact and get some recognition for their efforts and to develop some server pride and community to achieve that victory condition.

Intercontinental lattice adds to persistence and player agency but the obvious goal (capture every territory in the game) is not realistically achievable, nor can contribution towards it be measured. That's where WDS comes in. Its a strategic scoring system in its infancy. In the future I expect it will have points for continent locking, cracking, and sealing, with a possible instant victory if the unattainable is attained. I'm trying to sort out how best to score contribution of an outfit and identify good rewards. What would you like to see?

But as of right now, there is no possibility for strategy to be done. It is all tactics. So this is a system (Scoring system) being implemented prior to the system it is meant to compliment (Strategic game of PS2) being implemented. It's fitting a submarine with some kind of silent running technology, but leaving out the oxygen system... so it's nearly impossible for us to tell you what we want. We can say a Ton of things that people will want for some hypothetical strategic game... none of which could be applicable to the final plan of the strategy game of PS2... because we don't know what that is yet.

Will we be able to cut lattice links? If so, then maybe More of what is needed to do that.

Will there be artillery? Maybe enhanced range on that.

Will there be LLUs? Maybe a few more possibilities for those.

All people can comment on now, is what they see IG right this moment, and there is nothing IG right now that they can't already get through easier means, which could be rewarded through the WDS... that will benefit outfits more than the play time that is used to accumulate that score that won them the reward.

So things that I would like to be rewarded, but I have no idea as to if they will be part of the final product that is PS2:

-Something that will add Temporary Lattice links
-Extra use of an LLU, or a closer LLU...
-Ability to disable shields over a wider area
-Tanks available at more bases
-Orbital strike usage

Edit: As a scoring system the WDS scoring system is good. The 50% bonus to groups that are lead might be a step too far... just because it is so much of a boost, maybe a 10% boost in score when it comes to the winning faction. Other than that though, it is a solid premise. Understand that, because I know I just spent a whole post trashing it, it's not that I don't like the WDS, it's just that it's not going to work until the thing it compliments is put in. When the strategic game of PS2 is better implemented I think the WDS will do a great job.

Ragnafrak · 2013-10-21, 01:58 PM

I'm looking forward to outfits getting credit for base captures.

One thing that might make it more meaningful for outfits to take over territory would be if the outfit's logo got to be displayed on the continental map. For people who didn't want to see it, they could turn it off with the filters just like base names and resource types can be turned off. For people who are interested in outfit v. outfit stuff or props, it could be a way to earn braggin' rights.

Seeing that an outfit recently took a territory on the map would also give other outfits an idea of whether or not they would want to make the strategic choice of going head to head against that particular outfit as well.

Once we have the outfit revamp, with outfit specializations and such, the WDS could be used as an additional layer toward benefiting players who join outfits. Outfits who earn more WDS objective points could receive outfit-wide bonuses that would hopefully further encourage them to continue participating actively in the WDS.

Babyfark McGeez · 2013-10-21, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

What I've distilled out of this is:
1) rewards aren't motivating enough
2) world is not persistent enough for holdings to be meaningful
3) nothing to help outfits stand out in what they accomplish

The goal of WDS long-term is a victory condition in a world that is always changing, and where any one victory is short lived. We want it to be a way that outfits can compare strategic impact and get some recognition for their efforts and to develop some server pride and community to achieve that victory condition.

Intercontinental lattice adds to persistence and player agency but the obvious goal (capture every territory in the game) is not realistically achievable, nor can contribution towards it be measured. That's where WDS comes in. Its a strategic scoring system in its infancy. In the future I expect it will have points for continent locking, cracking, and sealing, with a possible instant victory if the unattainable is attained. I'm trying to sort out how best to score contribution of an outfit and identify good rewards. What would you like to see?

The problem with these mechanics is that they distract from the immersion and feel just out of place. Imagine playing "World of Warcraft" and having a excel sheet window inform you that the horde is leading in the war because of some intangible numbers. It just doesn't fit.

I read from your post that it is planned to keep the "wds" even after an intercontinental lattice is being put in the game. I honestly don't think that's a very good idea.
If you want to have some kind of "winning scenario thing" for gratification, do it with the game itself, not accumulated scoring spreadsheets. Take "typhaon"s idea for example, try to go along that lines. Let the players do something to achieve "victory", don't caclulate it. The game is bland enough as it is when it comes to gameplay and mechanics.

DirtyBird · 2013-10-21, 05:00 PM

There are more important things concerning players right now.
The WDS is just a distraction because nothing else is happening within the game.
Once you finally complete the PS4 release and can then focus on the real concerns of the player base then after that they might show an interest in the WDS.
Although I guess all this WDS testing is also for the PS4, maybe more so.
As it is now, how you manipulate a territory scoreboard to give the impression of a balanced game is the least of my concerns.

The game needs to be balanced, not the scoreboard, you would have included K/D data as part of the scores if it was balanced.

If you think rewards are a major factor to the acceptance of this why don't you tell us what rewards you are able to offer.
How important is this WDS to you, what's the best you have at your disposal to buy our interest?

Natir · 2013-10-21, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

What I've distilled out of this is:
1) rewards aren't motivating enough
2) world is not persistent enough for holdings to be meaningful
3) nothing to help outfits stand out in what they accomplish

The goal of WDS long-term is a victory condition in a world that is always changing, and where any one victory is short lived. We want it to be a way that outfits can compare strategic impact and get some recognition for their efforts and to develop some server pride and community to achieve that victory condition.

Intercontinental lattice adds to persistence and player agency but the obvious goal (capture every territory in the game) is not realistically achievable, nor can contribution towards it be measured. That's where WDS comes in. Its a strategic scoring system in its infancy. In the future I expect it will have points for continent locking, cracking, and sealing, with a possible instant victory if the unattainable is attained. I'm trying to sort out how best to score contribution of an outfit and identify good rewards. What would you like to see?

1) The WDS rewards, while are part of the problem, the whole point of the event is territory control and holding. You get almost no rewards in-game for this though compared to things like randomly getting kills. If I can earn more EXP in a couple of kills than I can waiting for a base to capture, what would I rather be doing? It doesn't matter if you are attacking or defending, if it is a good farm, then it is a good farm and no one really cares about the overall objective.

2) Well, yeah... Been like that for a while and WDS is not going to change that.

3)Outfit leaderboards...

Here is the thing, Malorn. In order for the WDS to actually work, you need a fully polished lattice, a working resource system (or removal) that matters, a reason to take territory, continental conquest, and the list can go on. WDS is mainly icing on top of the cake at the very least. It is a global reward for what you do in-game but the mechanics in-game are just flat out missing.

The game needs to be reworked from the ground up and an overhaul of the EXP system to favor what the game is supposed to be about, teamwork, continental conquest, etc. Right now it just favors your COD, BF4 mindset.

Carbon Copied · 2013-10-21, 08:52 PM

I apologize in advance for the long winded nature of this post.

1) rewards aren't motivating enough

Correct - stop throwing xp and boosts at the player base there's more than enough ways to get xp in this already. Why should I be motivated to fight for a 3 day boost when I should be being motivated to get some tangible in game empire benefit? The thought of "oh I must log in today and fight for my empire because I really want that 3 day boost / decal at the end of the week" is not something that I've ever encountered or cared about; have you? These need to be things that are a part of the game, not some war score on an excel spreadsheet - means fuck all to me if I'm playing or not.

2) world is not persistent enough for holdings to be meaningful

Creeps into the above and what you've expanded below: every player knows that full domination of a global lattice / cont lock is chasing the highly improbable in a 3 way, but you chase it anyway regardless. It's weird but I think even then it's motivation to chase it - currently there's nothing that gives a glimpse of this.

3) nothing to help outfits stand out in what they accomplish

The outfit revamp should cover the majority of this as more prominent outfits get their names on the banner board - but you can't forget the smaller ones that take part either this should have some sort of recognition roster in the installation of "Oufit x / y / z last took this base" base it around a minimum player threshold to be "recognized" where their decal displays on the board or something. The recognition, community and rivalries will grow from that naturally; supply the tools, nuture it if it needs it in infancy, just don't try and control it too much all in one go.

The goal of WDS long-term is a victory condition in a world that is always changing, and where any one victory is short lived. We want it to be a way that outfits can compare strategic impact and get some recognition for their efforts and to develop some server pride and community to achieve that victory condition.

The victories are short lived now yes, but come continental lattice they will be more persistent - you say that yourself. I may be missing the point but I don't see how adding points to an excel spreadsheet per outfit gives them recognition in game? See above reply #3.

Intercontinental lattice adds to persistence and player agency but the obvious goal (capture every territory in the game) is not realistically achievable, nor can contribution towards it be measured. That's where WDS comes in. Its a strategic scoring system in its infancy. In the future I expect it will have points for continent locking, cracking, and sealing, with a possible instant victory if the unattainable is attained. I'm trying to sort out how best to score contribution of an outfit and identify good rewards. What would you like to see?

I think WDS has a bright future and place post continental lattice as it will give indication of how things are going per faction, per server etc. Once the other more important areas are sorted out then you can think about sprinkling WDS on the top - the framework is good I think you're using it to try and fix or solve the wrong thing; trying to use a spreadsheet and points to justify an outfit's contribution and think it'll magically inspire to do that.... I just don't get any sense behind that.

WDS doesn't have to be complicated by any means if you limited it on it's final incarnation of locking continents, breaking them, taking major facilities (like typhaon's citadel continent captures) and any other planned "hallmark moments/actions" then you're giving goals... within the overall goal. Territory between is the stepping stones to these overall points added it doesn't mean you need to be handed them like they're sweets every time you walk out of spawn. Could potentially turn out that this abated scoring would also stop one faction accumulating to a point of the other 2 not being able to catch them on the score boards as well so you haven't got to really come up with any magic formulas to constantly appease.. sometimes Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS).. is best.

Shidhe · 2013-10-22, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by Malorn

words...We want it to be a way that outfits can compare strategic impact and get some recognition for their efforts and to develop some server pride and community to achieve that victory condition...words

words...I'm trying to sort out how best to score contribution of an outfit and identify good rewards. What would you like to see?

Screw outfits, show players. That's what modern FPS players dig, their name in the sky. It's the whole entitled "Generation me" thing. Just like the SOE players site is centered around individual players, that's the mindset of CoD and BF players.

I'd prefer there was less of them around, but the game ain't going to make money without them.

basti · 2013-10-22, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

3) nothing to help outfits stand out in what they accomplish

This is the key point.

But not for the WDS alone, but for the entire game.

Take a look Malorn, you played PS1 longer than I did, also with a tactical outfit that did the things that mattered, so you should know:

What can outfits actually do in PS2? Yes, we can all hop along in the big fight, taking out generators or pushing certain objectives, as part of the greater zerg.
Or we could gather up with other outfits and hold our own position against the enemy zerg.

But one way or another, the Zerg is always present, always there, constantly around us.

And this is what bothers me. Outfits cant go elsewere, they cant do the stuff that matter, because numbers are also a large factor.

So I say: Give us back Generator holds of the old days. Let us take out Benefits and ressource gain under the new ressource system. I got some ideas for how to fix the problems PS2s has with such things (Endless Repair, Revive, Ammo), but i need to finish preparing first.
Give us back Combat Ant drops. The new resource system already returns the ANT mechanic to us, but give us back our actual Ant. Let us load them up into Galaxys once more, and let Power rain down from the skies of Auraxis.
Give us back The Global Lattice, and lots of continents with it. let us open up new fronts on our own once more, or stop attempts of enemy outfits to open up our continents.

If outfits can differ from the zerg oriented outfit that is always in the middle, to the tactical outfit that takes stuff out behind enemy lines or helps where it helps most, then Outfits have a proper role in the game, and with this in the WDS.

Trying to shug on some points for outfits if they have plenty of people at a base capture, and calling it quits after that, would only make people angry.

**Malorn** · 2013-10-22, 03:50 PM

I know what you mean Basti. It's a complicated issue. A lot of what small outfits did in PS1 was before a zerg moved in - resecuring continent opening attempts. They got so good at it that empires had to start forming up raids in Sanctuary in order to break in. Having an intercontinental lattice will create those opportunities and may develop a similar meta.

The Zerg also predictably stayed in one lane on the Lattice most of the time and didn't shift quickly, so even on a poplocked continent you could make an impact by going after the non-zergy bases and get a good smaller fight because the zerg couldn't instantly relocate to deal with the threat. Your small fight stayed small for longer. And cloaked AMS made it not as easy to locate the spawn. There's a lot of reasons why the smaller outfits were viable and fun, and I have keen insight into what made it successful.

We're getting there. You probably won't see a big patch where that's the subject of the update, but it'll be something that gets chiseled at over the weeks and months. I think it is getting slowly better with every update.

EVILPIG · 2013-10-22, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Malorn

I know what you mean Basti. It's a complicated issue. A lot of what small outfits did in PS1 was before a zerg moved in - resecuring continent opening attempts. They got so good at it that empires had to start forming up raids in Sanctuary in order to break in. Having an intercontinental lattice will create those opportunities and may develop a similar meta.

The Zerg also predictably stayed in one lane on the Lattice most of the time and didn't shift quickly, so even on a poplocked continent you could make an impact by going after the non-zergy bases and get a good smaller fight because the zerg couldn't instantly relocate to deal with the threat. Your small fight stayed small for longer. And cloaked AMS made it not as easy to locate the spawn. There's a lot of reasons why the smaller outfits were viable and fun, and I have keen insight into what made it successful.

We're getting there. You probably won't see a big patch where that's the subject of the update, but it'll be something that gets chiseled at over the weeks and months. I think it is getting slowly better with every update.

Why was the ability to blow gens without a link removed? One of our spec ops units specializes in base preparation and this was part of their protocol. If it was removed because of players who just ran around and blew gens for points, then remove the point reward.

Sirisian · 2013-10-22, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

Why was the ability to blow gens without a link removed? One of our spec ops units specializes in base preparation and this was part of their protocol. If it was removed because of players who just ran around and blew gens for points, then remove the point reward.

It's been suggested before that at 50% the lattice links would be semi-connected allowing players to leave the base and move on toward other objectives. (Losing the objective though would immediately stop any captures on objectives that used that link). This preserves long hack-times and promotes galaxy based take backs and lets the zerg spread out. That said it also requires getting rid of the horrible system where you lose XP for taking a step outside of an objective. (That is you earn XP while fighting in the area and if the capture goes through you get it no matter where you are. At the same time though XP should increase as the capture gets closer promoting defense and offense during the last seconds. Assuming spawn kills are mitigated. Complex problem).

EVILPIG · 2013-10-22, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Sirisian

It's been suggested before that at 50% the lattice links would be semi-connected allowing players to leave the base and move on toward other further objectives. (Losing the objective though would immediately stop any captures). This preserved long hack-times and promotes galaxy based take backs and lets the zerg spread out. That said it also requires getting rid of the horrible system where you lose XP for taking a step outside of an objective. (That is you earn XP while fighting in the area and if the capture goes through you get it no matter where you are).

This only applies to "the next territory". Gens should be opened up across the cont again. Just remove the XP award for destruction. Same for terminals. Players will destroy gens and terms if they need to, not because it gives XP.

Mastachief · 2013-10-22, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

This only applies to "the next territory". Gens should be opened up across the cont again. Just remove the XP award for destruction. Same for terminals. Players will destroy gens and terms if they need to, not because it gives XP.

But how would the scrubs get xp....

They give xp for everything, it really is stupid. You can't tactically use gens or terminals because littlejimmy has to make it go boom for xp yo.

Malorn i'm pleased to hear that the old game mechanics that provided meta game have not been forgotten, i live in hope they will come back. Gets tedious fighting within the zerg and getting crushed by much zoes than your platoon has members because every one can pull one.

typhaon · 2013-10-22, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by EVILPIG

Why was the ability to blow gens without a link removed? One of our spec ops units specializes in base preparation and this was part of their protocol. If it was removed because of players who just ran around and blew gens for points, then remove the point reward.

I feel like there might've been other reasons it was removed. If points was the only reason then SOE would've done exactly what you said.

There's little reason (certainly not for getting score - and that's the only motivation in the game) to ever defend a base behind the lines. Prepping bases essentially involves sending some infiltrators into unguarded places, pressing E... with the only resistance you're like to ever find is a few unaware people milling around and a random mine or two.

You want to be really pro? Trigger the gens in unison. Yay!

I'm all for back-hacking, base prepping, whatever... but for such a huge impact on the base's defense - there just needs to be more to it. There needs to be some skill involved. There needs to be some danger.

Put it back in like it is now, and it's just a mechanic that would be fun for a few... and annoying for most.