The AA "ladder" is messed up.

MrMak · 2013-05-23, 08:36 AM

As the TR MAX lockdowm emphasised the burster is the most effective AA weapon in the game. Now how does that make sense? Both from a gameplay and logical point of view.

Logicaly what we see here is a small 15mm(ish) flak gun more effective than a quad rapid fireing 30mm flak gun(Skyguard) not to mention the ranger and AA Phalanx which are both clearly bigger.

From a gameplay point of view we have the 2nd most accessible and hard to spot AA option as the most powerfull leavign the others rather obselete.

Of course nerfing the burster alone would be idiotic since it would just bring us back to the "good old days" in beta when AA was smacked with a nerf hammer coated in dry cement.

AA needs to be rebalanced not so much in relation to air (though a little bit of that is sort of needed aswell) but in relation to itself.

Bursters should be where the Ranger is now. A deterant which is only a major threat en mass and at close range. This can be done with either giving it the ridicoulus fireign cone the Skyguard and Ranger curently "enjoy" or by scaling the flak damamge over distance much more drasticaly than it is now. This \will also make lockdown burster MAXes much more bearable.

The Ranger needs to have its fireing cone tightened siginificantly to actualy make it hit stuff at the range it is supose to deter them.

The Skyguard needs to have its fireing cone tightened. This may have to go in hand with a damage nerf (Ill take the ability to hit stuff for potential damage on the off hand i hit stuff anyday). If the firepower and mobility are too scary than perhaps make the skyguard turret give the Lightning a anchored mode like deploy finction that tightenes the fieing cone. That way the driver has to choose between mobility and acuracy. Its overall effectivness should be where the dual burster MAX is right now.

The phalanx AA turret seems to be pretty much ok as it is if the bursters get kicked down from the top of the food chain. They are pretty powerfull as it is now, the problem is its more effective to just put a burster MAX next to it than man it. MAXes should be asuplement to the turret not the other way around.

Finaly the Walker and AA lockon launchers (except maybe the striker but thats another problem entirely) are in a good place right now.

Finaly the air. ESFs will be fine once Skyguards take over from bursters. They are easier to spot (and subsequently avoid or eliminate).

Liberators are in a bit of a pickle since they dont have the speed of ESFs to get the hell away once they get targeted. They should probably get a similar armor upgrade as tanks got. Make hem more rsistant to flak so AA realy is mostly a deterant to them and make them perhaps more vunerable to Rotaries so that ESFs are the hard counter. Perhaps give ESFs a heavy A2A lockon "torpedo" that is highly effective against Liberators and Galaxies but unable to properly track fast targets like ESFs.

Chaff · 2013-05-23, 10:00 AM

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..... hmmmmmm, everything he proposes seems to be geared towards making survivability for air easier.
(....must be an infantry guy)
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maradine · 2013-05-23, 11:16 AM

Considering that the AA capabilities of two factions just got a minor buff, it's not an entirely unreasonable position to take. If you think it was balanced before, as many assert, you ergo should probably believe it isn't balanced now.

That said, there's a number of ways out of this - no MAX ability effect on NS weapons would be one. Swapping the combat effectiveness of the SG and the Burster would be another. I'm a fan of the latter strategy, as I think the SG is still a platform without a purpose.

You don't need to be an infantry guy to know it's messy out there - hell, I'm a prime contributor.

Chaff · 2013-05-23, 11:51 AM

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I get that. But, if everyone who likes killing air switches to SG (after the (proposed) role switch with bursters) ..... what's the net differenct for the air guys ? Who cares which loadout killed you if you die the same amount ? Does it matter that you now die to SG spam instead of Burster spam ?

.... also, how many mega-Certed Max players will Flame-Rant when they lose their favorite toy ?

Sony put themselves in this corner. Eventually, they'll choose a way out. The way harassers can MOW Maxes ..... may be an indicator of ways they slowly begin to whittle away at the Max AA spam.....

.... not sure I care much .... they keep nerfing, buffing, and tweaking ..... and the community keeps adapting & exploiting the next-best option.
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maradine · 2013-05-23, 11:54 AM

For the air guys, it makes the process feel less cheap, since they have a better chance to at least locate their aggressors - a good thing. For the ground guys, it changes the logistics of where and how AA is deployed, and gives the SG a better role - a good thing. The net balance needle doesn't need to move very much.

I have a few thousand certs in my MAX, and an even grand in my Bursters. I'll get over it.

Falcon_br · 2013-05-23, 12:02 PM

Secondary buster 1000 certs.
Extended mags on both arms 1000 certs.
Last rank of anchored mode 2250 certs.
Last rank of flak armor about 1500 certs.

Having the best anti air max on the game and the strike:
Priceless!
Almost 48 hours now without dying to ESF and counting up!

Lonehunter · 2013-05-23, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by MrMak

Logicaly what we see here is a small 15mm(ish) flak gun more effective than a quad rapid fireing 30mm flak gun(Skyguard)...From a gameplay point of view we have the 2nd most accessible and hard to spot AA option as the most powerfull

Good points

Originally Posted by MrMak

Liberators are in a bit of a pickle since they dont have the speed of ESFs to get the hell away once they get targeted.

Nor should they, IT'S A GUNSHIP. To me it's shocking to know they all ready have the same airspeed as a Reaver, preventing a FIGHTER from outrunning a GUNSHIP....

Technologist · 2013-05-23, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by MrMak

As the TR MAX lockdowm emphasised the burster is the most effective AA weapon in the game. Now how does that make sense? Both from a gameplay and logical point of view.

Logicaly what we see here is a small 15mm(ish) flak gun more effective than a quad rapid fireing 30mm flak gun(Skyguard) not to mention the ranger and AA Phalanx which are both clearly bigger.

The VC Bursters are now more deadly with ZOE. They are more effective then the TR MAX Bursters. TR MAX with lockdown increases the fire rate and reload but ZOE makes each round more powerful. This gives VC about the same damage per second as lockdown MAX but those 28 or 42 rounds have much more total damage. Total damage capacity is now more with the ZOE and with higher mobility, speed and full 360 rotation the VC burster ZOE beats out the locked down MAX by a long shot and also allows quick retreat into safety.

Try them in the Training area and you'll see it takes about 30% less rounds to blow up ESF's and liberators with the ZOE.

As for the SkyGuard compared to a dual burster MAX? The skyguard was buffed recently and is now very effective now. Personally, I find it safer and easier to take down air with the skyguard then with a burster max. You have high speed mobility and can chase down ESF's allowing a longer period where you have open shots to hit and a 3x zoom. The lightning also has a much larger ammunition pool.

MrMak · 2013-05-23, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by Lonehunter

Nor should they, IT'S A GUNSHIP. To me it's shocking to know they all ready have the same airspeed as a Reaver, preventing a FIGHTER from outrunning a GUNSHIP....

Exactly its an armored gunship. Hence ESFs (and possibly other Liberators) shoudl be the primary counter. It should be able to tank some flak before having to veer off.

Inicialy i wanted to propose a similar armor buff to the galaxy but that thing is hard to kill as it is.

Obstruction · 2013-05-23, 02:05 PM

Liberators are in a bit of a pickle since they dont have the speed of ESFs to get the hell away once they get targeted. They should probably get a similar armor upgrade as tanks got. Make hem more rsistant to flak so AA realy is mostly a deterant to them and make them perhaps more vunerable to Rotaries so that ESFs are the hard counter. Perhaps give ESFs a heavy A2A lockon "torpedo" that is highly effective against Liberators and Galaxies but unable to properly track fast targets like ESFs.

the last thing liberator needs is more weakness to esf.

Nor should they, IT'S A GUNSHIP. To me it's shocking to know they all ready have the same airspeed as a Reaver, preventing a FIGHTER from outrunning a GUNSHIP....

you don't fly them obviously. with a full racer upgrade and flying upside down (falling) you can hit 260 for periods of time. cruising speed flying sideways with vertical thrusters you can approach 235-240. flying like a scrub you can make 220 which is the speed of a stock reaver. acceleration without afterburner is still extremely sluggish in comparison to anything except maybe a vanguard going uphill.

all other stock esf go faster than this. all stock esf go faster than this with the aid of vertical thrusters. any 100 cert upgrade to hover or racer allows esf to outrun or chase down a bad liberator pilot.

the only good recourse to an esf vs liberator is to turn the ventral cannon on them and close the gap before they can complete their pass. if there's 2 esf the only thing to do is abuse your altitude and fall away at ~260 kph while giving some angles to the ventral and tail weapons.

if the esf pilots are good you may as well just slam it into the ground.

i wrote some bullet points in the esf balance thread, and i think the state of balance is almost bearable even as bad as it is for liberators before and after the latest AA buff. i won't repeat them here but you can find them if you search my posts.

liberator in my estimation now needs:

moderate to substantial increase in HP
a dorsal weapon and a 4th gunner seat
an improvement to AA weapon selection for dorsal and tail positions (rumble seat for AA max LOLZ)
flares standardized and based on ammo count (all aircraft)
additional utility and/or defense slot to lessen the impact of harmful tradeoffs

Fenrys · 2013-05-23, 03:49 PM

I'm with you on buffing the Ranger and Skyguard.

Libs are already tough enough to take it without an armor increase.

Obstruction · 2013-05-23, 04:49 PM

Libs are already tough enough to take it without an armor increase.

i'm not going to go back and forth about it but if you spend any time at all trying to contribute to large scale fights as a liberator crew you'll understand how ignorant that sounds.

if you're talking about a half a dozen scrubs with dumbfires and spawnshield pussymax, well, yeah, it's hard to kill a liberator.

i'm simply advocating that people who have invested 5000-10000 certs into liberator be able to contribute to team objectives, especially now that every fight is 60 on 60 at east canyon and indar comm, with 5-10 AA ground units present.

that's not even mentioning which side of this has gotten buffed every update and which has gotten some small nerf or at minimum a slap in the face each time. i'm really not trying to drag the conversation down into that. but there it is. we all know it.

i'll just close by saying:

give me a fucking break

SolLeks · 2013-05-23, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

Secondary buster 1000 certs.
Extended mags on both arms 1000 certs.
Last rank of anchored mode 2250 certs.
Last rank of flak armor about 1500 certs.

Having the best anti air max on the game and the strike:
Priceless!
Almost 48 hours now without dying to ESF and counting up!

and that is still sevral thousand certs cheaper than a good A2A ESF setup =/

also, why is the small one in this pic (20mm *not really AA but pretend it is* rounds) more powerful than the large one (40mm AA rounds)?

Sunrock · 2013-05-23, 04:53 PM

I think the best idea is to buff the Air again to where it was before it got nerfed. But also the skyguard needs to be better then a burster for sure. But it's not the damage if the skyguard that makes it bad. Its the damn accurasy of it. Its just so mush easier to hit things with the burster compared to the skyguard. The skyguard needs a muzzle velocity and accuracy buff.

GreyFrog · 2013-05-23, 06:00 PM

AA Max's need a swap with Skyguard for the simple fact that a SG renders @ >400m for Pilots and Maxes often don't. So you get hit with flak with very little idea where it is coming from.