The LA and Infiltrator Classes Need to be Merged

BlaxicanX · 2013-06-14, 09:52 PM

A lot of people assign arbitrary value to the Light Assault and the Infiltrator. They point out the flanking abilities of the LA, the hacking ability and the sniping of the Infiltrator, and make anecdotes about how useful these tools are in the game, etc etc. That's cool, but objectively, neither class possesses abilities that allow them to have any truly meaningful impact on the battlefield, at least compared to the other classes.

That's what happens when you take a game that has hundreds of infantry fighting in the same area at any one time, respawning infinitely, and adding in classes who are only efficient at killing infantry. The value of a life in this game is not high enough to make classes that are only efficient at killing infantry viable.

What would help the classes would be side-accesories- which is what makes all the other classes so useful. Heavy Assault is fantastic at killing infantry, but it's also got access to every rocket launcher in the game, which makes it a must-have for anti-vehicle and anti-max. The engineer's assault rifle is good for killing infantry, but the real strength of the class lies in its repair tool and mana turret, again fulfilling a vital and exclusive role. The medic has the healgun, obviously, which is extremely important for supporting any push.

Infiltrator has the sensor dart, which is entirely useless in the grand scheme of things, and the hacking ability, which is very niche. Hacking vehicle terminals to pull sundy's is the only consistent use you'll ever get out of an infilitrator, and, well, there's only so many vehicle terminals and turrets on any base...

Light Assault gets nothing by default. They have a jetpack which lets them get into cool positions, but zero decent long-range weaponry to take advantage of said position. So instead they use their jetpacks to flank, basically. Approach enemies from odd angles for easy kills. That isn't useful because A) There is no "front" to flank. Large infantry battles basically descend into arena-shooter matches with everyone running around a base in circles looking for enemies until the defenders get pushed back to their spawns. B)There's simply too many targets and not enough ammunition or killing ability with our little carbines. While carbines are quick-killers when you're in range, the class only has enough ammo to kill three or four people before you find yourself dry behind enemy lines, meaning you either die or need to run away to find more ammo. Killing three or four people out of literally dozens to hundreds, all of whom respawn in seconds anyway, is simply not helpful toward winning a battle. Even with a dozen light-assaults doing this simultaneously, that isn't really putting a dent in anything.

Then there's C4. The funnest part of being a Light Assault, imo. Nothing beats stealthing over rooftops to reach a tank or sundy and lighting it up with some C4. It's awesome. But it isn't practical, nor efficient. Double C4 won't even kill a Sunderer, and there's almost always an engineer or two hanging out around the vehicle to repair it anyway. Plus, that's not even counting how the entire tactic can be shut down simply by the sundy's turrets being manned.

Popping tanks is cool, but it simply isn't efficient at all to spend 30 seconds huffing it over to the tank just to blow it up- not when there's dozens of heavy assaults and mana turret engineers hanging around waiting to pop a tank from 300 meters away.

So, the classes need some more accessories to expand their roles (or at least make them better at doing what they're supposed to be doing). The problem is that the two classes have the same damn role. Let's not sit here and pretend that sniping has any real value in this game. It doesn't. Takes too long to kill with snipers, and there aren't enough high value targets to make it worth while. The most important targets to snipe in this game are medics and engineers, but for every medic and engy you kill a dozen will take its place. Sniping is fun for farming but that's it.

So minus sniping, they both have the same role, which is basically to go behind enemy lines and fuck shit up. To that end, neither class really has any gear that allows them to perform the role admirably. I've had some ideas for accessories, such as plantable EMP devices to disable lock-on weapons in a certain radius, or hud scramblers that disable the mini-map and fuzz up the hud of anyone near it, abilities that allow them to cap/decap points faster- things like that. The issue though is that both classes need things like that to function, but if you give them either or, the other class loses its identity. With that being the case, I think the Light Assault and Infiltrator should be merged. Call it the Infiltrator, and allow it to take carbines, SMG's, sniper rifles and battle-rifles. Put the cloaking ability and the jetpack in the same utility category, so that you have to choose between the two, and add a shit ton of accessories that allow the infiltrator to maximize the damage it can do behind enemy lines. Boom, class fixed. Infiltrator is now actually relevant, and has a specific role that it can fulfill.

TL;DR: Infiltrator and Light Assault both suffer from only being efficient at killing infantry(with the infiltrator being not even all that great at that without an SMG), which is not an important skill in this game since all classes can kill infantry decently well and there's simply too many troops around at any time to make death meaningful. The only way to make LA/Infil viable is to give them accessories that expand their roles and allow them to actually be good at them, but in order to do that, the classes need to be merged.

Palerion · 2013-06-14, 10:41 PM

I think you and I are on a similar track here.

Every class must be significant in its own way. I completely agree, the devs have not given the Light Assault and Infiltrator good direction and teamplay abilities, and they both fill a similar purpose. You're right, the small uses that people point out are arbitrary.

DarkBalths · 2013-06-14, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

While carbines are quick-killers when you're in range, the class only has enough ammo to kill three or four people before you find yourself dry behind enemy lines, meaning you either die or need to run away to find more ammo.

If it takes you 180 rounds to kill four people, maybe you shouldn't be trying to change the one of the core elements of the game (the classes), and you should instead focus on learning how to play.

They should NOT merge the classes. That idea is as ridiculous as me saying "we should merge VS and NC so it's just TR versus NC all the time."
That's a terrible idea, and it would never happen. Same with merging the two classes. Ask anyone who likes to main as Infiltrator, and they'll say that's a terrible idea.
Also, you say cloak and jetpack should occupy the same slot, so you can't have both. Don't we already have that? That's why there are two different classes. Basically what you're saying is:

"Infiltrators should have carbines."
"Infiltrators should have C4."
"Light Assaults should have sniper rifles."
"I should be able to go invisible, then sneak up on a tank, then blow it to fuck with no warning."
"I need the game to baby me because I lack the skill of utilizing what's available, and instead the game should carry me through it by making things completely overpowered in every way."

There's a reason infiltrators don't get any anti-vehicle weapons: They're fucking invisible.

If you could have a class that carries a TRAC-5, can go invisible, plant mines, place C4, drop recon devices, and use a jetpack just by going to a terminal and switching out, while keeping the rest of its items the same, who in their right mind would play any class other than this fucking warlord?

Basically, I think you're asking for the game to change for everyone just to fit what you want, which seems to be a class that kicks ass at everything, so you don't have to specialize. Maybe you should find a different game that suits your needs better.

Also, don't even get me started on how this merge idea can never happen, because of all the certs people have spent that would go to waste on things like armour, as well as station cash people have spent on helmets, cosmetic armour, etc.

Palerion · 2013-06-14, 11:09 PM

I think your blood pressure is getting out of control bro.

It's a fine suggestion. C4 doesn't have to be available to those with cloak. He's not asking for a warlord class. I know for a fact I'm not asking for a warlord class. Honestly I don't even play LA anymore, and never play infiltrator, but for the time that I did, I realized the two classes lacked direction. Merging them would not remove any certs people have invested into them. This is a common suggestion and could greatly improve the game.

On the other hand, you really need to calm down. You come into this thread kicking and screaming with a bad attitude, your post won't be taken seriously. I don't see why some people have so much trouble making mature and collected posts and not raging about.

BlaxicanX · 2013-06-14, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by DarkBalths

If it takes you 180 rounds to kill four people, maybe you shouldn't be trying to change the one of the core elements of the game (the classes), and you should instead focus on learning how to play.

They should NOT merge the classes. That idea is as ridiculous as me saying "we should merge VS and NC so it's just TR versus NC all the time."
That's a terrible idea, and it would never happen. Same with merging the two classes. Ask anyone who likes to main as Infiltrator, and they'll say that's a terrible idea.
Also, you say cloak and jetpack should occupy the same slot, so you can't have both. Don't we already have that? That's why there are two different classes. Basically what you're saying is:

"Infiltrators should have carbines."
"Infiltrators should have C4."
"Light Assaults should have sniper rifles."
"I should be able to go invisible, then sneak up on a tank, then blow it to fuck with no warning."
"I need the game to baby me because I lack the skill of utilizing what's available, and instead the game should carry me through it by making things completely overpowered in every way."

There's a reason infiltrators don't get any anti-vehicle weapons: They're fucking invisible.

If you could have a class that carries a TRAC-5, can go invisible, plant mines, place C4, drop recon devices, and use a jetpack just by going to a terminal and switching out, while keeping the rest of its items the same, who in their right mind would play any class other than this fucking warlord?

Basically, I think you're asking for the game to change for everyone just to fit what you want, which seems to be a class that kicks ass at everything, so you don't have to specialize. Maybe you should find a different game that suits your needs better.

Also, don't even get me started on how this merge idea can never happen, because of all the certs people have spent that would go to waste on things like armour, as well as station cash people have spent on helmets, cosmetic armour, etc.

The only part of this post that actually addressed anything I said was the first statement, it's also the only part of your rant that could be construed as an actual argument (though it's a poor one, the carbine is not a precision weapon). The rest of your post is either putting words in my mouth or screaming "this is a bad suggestion because it's bad!"

Do you have anything useful to say?

Wahooo · 2013-06-14, 11:26 PM

Originally Posted by Palerion

It's a fine suggestion. C4 doesn't have to be available to those with cloak. He's not asking for a warlord class. I know for a fact I'm not asking for a warlord class. Honestly I don't even play LA anymore, and never play infiltrator, *SNIP*
This is a common suggestion and could greatly improve the game.

The thing is if you are going to start limiting parts of a class that equip other parts of the class you need to make two classes right?
The conclusion of what you would need to do if these classes were merged is to separate them.

Infils should not get shotguns or c4.
LAs should not get sniper rifles.

The hacking IS useful if used right and infils still need to sneak around to use it to its real power, LA's could abuse the crap out of it.
The Infil reveal tool has a purpose, but you need to play infil a lot to really appreciate it, so it works for that class.

Both classes could use some work, yes... but it is just not practical to merge them.

BlaxicanX · 2013-06-14, 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Wahooo

The thing is if you are going to start limiting parts of a class that equip other parts of the class you need to make two classes right?

No, you don't. You simply remove things that unbalance the class and replace them with other things. Also, there's nothing OP about LA having sniper rifles or Infiltrators having shotguns. Guns are ranged weapons, ergo if an Infiltrator uses his jetpack to fly high up to a vantage point and use his sniper rifle, he can be killed by... other people with guns.

The hacking IS useful if used right

How?

LA's could abuse the crap out of it.

How?

The Infil reveal tool has a purpose

Which is?

maradine · 2013-06-15, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

How?

By providing attackers with friendly terminals in unfriendly places. By yanking turrets out from under their operators in a tower fight. Those are both Big Deals.

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

How?

By subverting all of the implicit balance restrictions on hacking such as "having to get to the target in one piece". I don't think this is actually a big deal, but hey, you asked.

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

Which is?

Providing your entire faction with motion tracker data on demand. I'd like to think the value of this is self-evident, but I suppose it could be some super sekrit technique and I'm just in the know.

And for the record, since we seem to be getting all uppity about the comparative values of people's arguments:

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

A lot of people assign arbitrary value to the Light Assault and the Infiltrator. They point out the flanking abilities of the LA, the hacking ability and the sniping of the Infiltrator, and make anecdotes about how useful these tools are in the game, etc etc. That's cool, but objectively, neither class possesses abilities that allow them to have any truly meaningful impact on the battlefield, at least compared to the other classes.

You seem to have confused the meaning of "objectively". Your assessment of the comparative impact of class functions is just one more opinion on the pile - just like the anecdotes you dismiss.

Gonefshn · 2013-06-15, 12:44 AM

I completely disagree with this idea. The infiltrator sensor dart is extremely effective when used with a squad. Sniping in and of itself is such a huge thing it needs to remain its own class.

The light assault can cover rooftops, flank and that makes it nothing like the other classes.
The light assault could use more tools but it shouldn't be merged no way.

PredatorFour · 2013-06-15, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

Infiltrator has the sensor dart, which is entirely useless in the grand scheme of things,

Sorry dude i stopped reading after this line. Sensor darts are what makes infils OP they're great. "Oh look theres a guy in this room hiding.." a throw of an emp nade and a burst of smg sorts em out. It's radar, the most useful thing in the game. The only thing that needs changing on infil is a perma cloak like PS 1 but with no main weapon.

Light assault needs the speed boost on constantly to make it stand out more.

kubacheski · 2013-06-15, 06:36 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

It's radar, the most useful thing in the game. The only thing that needs changing on infil is a perma cloak like PS 1 but with no main weapon.

Wonderfully stated.

Play without sound for 10 minutes, then turn sound back on. Notice a difference. Thats what the sensor dart is when used properly. I mostly hit up the sundy for just 3 more darts. Even better when in squad. I so miss perma cloak. If Hacking were more prevalant and the Infil had more to do, then sniping would have to be its own class. Kinda sucks they got paired up. Infil was the ultimate sniper hunter and vice versa. Was so fun as infil in PS1 before anyone knew the power of DarkLight implant. That's way back tho.

Hacking would stand out more if you could hack vehicles or reduce time on counter during hacks. Like 2 hacks max with 10% drop in timer each time. Heck I miss locked doors too.

LA just needs a few minor tweaks to things it already has. Mobility mobility mobility is key.

When you dismiss flanking an opponent as there is no "front", it shows your lack of understanding of how devestating overlapping fields of fire is in this game. And the funniest part of LA is that it can't oneshot an armored vehicle? Seriously? Do you understand the cooperative concepts of squad based FPS's, let alone the Platoon level dynamics of the game you're playing? Its not a secret: You kill a lot more when you work together. You die a lot less too.

I knew SOE was screwing this franchise up by catering to the COD/BF croud. Now you have people wanting BR40's in PS1. Shilly Sit. Next they'll be doing something stupid like porting to PS4.....oh wait.

Canaris · 2013-06-15, 06:45 AM

oh hell no to this idea

camycamera · 2013-06-15, 08:10 AM

yeah... no.

all the infiltrator needs is a bit of a overhaul, which is planned.

and btw, the infiltrator is a VERY efficient killer with a sniper, even more so than an LA. i have had much larger killstreaks than i have ever had with the LA.

Lucidius · 2013-06-15, 11:31 AM

I wouldn't mind the classes being merged with the same functionality saying.

When you equip cloak abilities, you done the infiltration suit. This suit limits what you can equip in your primary weapon slot and utility slot.

When you equip the jetpack abilities, you have the LA armor or an armored infiltration suit. This suit limits what you can equip in your primary slot and utility slot.

Keep the lower HP universally. This gives people more flexibility when certing into this role.

I honestly don't see this happening though since having them separate provides a greater cert/SC sink in the long run.

KesTro · 2013-06-15, 12:00 PM

I'm against mergeing any of the classes. :| Get your hands off my LA! I'm of the mind to wait for the class redesigns and see what we end up with then. Infiltrators by large feel fine with their kit, I don't really want to see perma-invis on them but hey some people do.

I only hope that they scrap that dualwielding idea on LA and go with something more.. useful rather than flashy. A screaming eagle of a jetpack is flashy enough.