Plan C: We keep both, the Lattice AND the Hex

TheDrone · 2013-05-27, 04:46 PM

It's obvious from reading the discussions back and forth about which system is better that different people want different things from this game.

And I say, why not?
The Lattice offers a certain experience which is valid in itself. The Hex, when improved upon, could offer its own experience.
People have different ideas of what they expect from battle-flow and strategy or tactics.
There is nothing wrong with people having different tastes.

In EVE you have Empire space and Nulsec, each with their own rules and appeal. Both make EVE as a whole more appealing to more types of players.
Capture The Flag and Team Deathmatch can both exist in the same FPS.
Some people like dungeon-running, other people like questing. And a third group likes to do both.
Some people like survival mode in Minecraft, other people like to just build stuff in creative mode.

Lots of games have different game-modes, all of which took development time. Some are more popular than others, but that doesn't mean there should only be one.

We have three continents. Why not keep one a Hex continent and use the developers previously working on figuring out the rules of the Lattice to improve upon the Hex until it no longer has the flaws it now has.

Everyone will benefit from this.
There will be more types of people attracted to the game, therefore more players, more payers and thus more money to pay for devs.
There will be more content overall. The odds will be smaller for the game to turn stale. Fatigue will be lessened due to diversity.

Now, yes, there are bound to be some practical considerations. But there were practical considerations inherent to switching from the hex to the lattice. Yet people realized the potential and tried to push the developers to overcome these.
So I implore you to not instantly dismiss this notion.

Even tho you might not understand someone else's tastes, that doesn't mean those tastes are invalid.

FAQ:

Q: The Hex has flaws! How stupid are you for not realizing this.

A: I realize it very well, thank you. Hence why I am suggesting the Hex is to be improved.

Q: Why are you suggesting the impossible, namely trying to make everyone happy?

A: Making everyone happy is quite impossible. Luckily literally no one, anywhere, is suggesting that we do that.
The idea is to accommodate two distinctly different philosophies.

Q: They are already implementing the Lattice at continent X and Y. Surely this means it's over for the Hex?

A: And they used to be implementing the Hex for these continents. They can switch again, for just one continent.

Q: If [insert either of both systems] is objectively superior because of [insert any rant here] then why should either be kept?

A: Vinyl is inherently inferior to CD's, yet some people simply prefer vinyl.

Q: Why not have different servers for each rule-set/game-mode?

A: Because if people want to switch from one to the other, they should be able to play their favorite character.

Q: What if either system is less popular?

A: This is bound to be the case. It happens in many a game that for example CTF is more popular than TDM. Yet the developers offer multiple options to increase revenue and alleviate staleness. IN PS2 we have continents that are less popular than others. Steps can be taken to promote these.

Q: Wouldn't we run the risk of less quality if both systems need be developed?

A: Apparently, judging from the feedback of the community, the Lattice is more or less fine. This allows for development time to spend on the Hex.

Q: Why keep me from playing my favorite continent in the game-mode/rule-set I prefer most?

A: I wouldn't dream of proposing such. One option is to do what we do now for people who want to play starting from a different warp-gate. Rotate.

Baneblade · 2013-05-27, 05:14 PM

There is no conceivable long term benefit to keeping the hex separate from the lattice and/or to segregate continents.

The problems hexers have with the lattice won't exist once Hossin, Searhus, and the rest come in.

TheDrone · 2013-05-27, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Baneblade

There is no conceivable long term benefit to keeping the hex separate from the lattice and/or to segregate continents.

The problems hexers have with the lattice won't exist once Hossin, Searhus, and the rest come in.

If the Hex could ever be superior to the Lattice, then it's only logical that only further development can bring this to light.
Lattice only will drive people away, as you severely underestimate the width and depth or their arguments.
Lattice only will drive people who pay away.
Lattice only reduces the credibility of SOE as they initially convinced people and promised, the Hex. A compromise would be a PR-victory. It's easy to listen to one group of players, it's an achievement to think of everyone's well-being.
Hex hold potential that could be better developed if it does not have to conform to demands of Latticers and is allowed to serve its own public.
It's not inconceivable that either group like variety. More possible ways to play the game will lessen the potential for staleness and fatigue.
Whenever some bad change is made to either mode, there is a working and improved back-up.
Compromising is nice and makes you seem more human. :-)

It would seem all of those are long-term benefits.

Vashyo · 2013-05-27, 05:41 PM

Originally Posted by TheDrone

If the Hex could ever be superior to the Lattice, then it's only logical that only further development can bring this to light.
Lattice only will drive people away, as you severely underestimate the width and depth or their arguments.
Lattice only will drive people who pay away.
Lattice only reduces the credibility of SOE as they initially convinced people and promised, the Hex. A compromise would be a PR-victory. It's easy to listen to one group of players, it's an achievement to think of everyone's well-being.
Hex hold potential that could be better developed if it does not have to conform to demands of Latticers and is allowed to serve its own public.
It's not inconceivable that either group like variety. More possible ways to play the game will lessen the potential for staleness and fatigue.
Whenever some bad change is made to either mode, there is a working and improved back-up.
Compromising is nice and makes you seem more human. :-)

It would seem all of those are long-term benefits.

I feel you've allready written it off as dead before we even have had some statistical numbers and played on it.

Give it couple of months since some of us allready had to stomach 6 months on the hex system and we had to merge half the servers. If this doesn't work then it will be switched to another one.

I still don't feel that having both is really a good idea, mostly cause this game requires lot of people and if the modes aren't equally liked then ur gonna see some serious population imbalances. You could allways bribe people to go the continent that has the less liked gamemode with certs, but then it would also create imbalances on the liked one, like alerts do now.

PS2 will allways be a numbers game no matter what gameplay we have. Empires with less players can only stall the inevitable loss simply because they don't have enough personnel to fight effectively in every front.

basti · 2013-05-27, 05:43 PM

Lets end this, right here, right now.

No. Simple, and easy: No.

No to a hybrid, no to any compromise, just no. Get rid of the HEx, let it die, let us never forget how absoltly stupid the idea was. Let us never forget how Lattice suggestions came up DURING TECH TEST!

From the very start of Planetside 2s live, we knew the hex system is broken. At the beginning, most tried to fix it, some saw the truth right away and tried to get rid of it and get the old, the good, the 10 years proved working system in.

Time went on, patces happend, changes were made, but the hex system never got fixed.

People screamed defence is impssible because bases lack walls. We got walls, yet defence was still impossible.
People screamed ghost capping needs to stop. We got adjacency rules, yet ghost capping still happend.
People screamed about certain aspects of certain bases, certain aspects of certain continetns, etc etc etc.

It was a never ending, constantly growing PAIN in Planetside 2, and nobody who wanted to keep the Hex quite got its finger on it. People hoped that the issue lies within something else, and not the very basic idea of the hex system.

But just nothing helped.

Till Indar post Lattice came. And it is glorious. Is it perfect? No, by far not. But there are now fresh ideas, fresh possibilitys to fix the issues. We tried it all with the Hex, nothing worked. The lattice fixed he major issues we could never fix with the hex. Yes. we lost some options for smaller Outfits, but once again, 10 years of expirence already give us the answer to that question.

All the problems people see right now with the lattice can be easily fixed, by simply going back to Planetside 1, taking a look at how things were done, and then recreating the system in Planetside 2, while making sure the changes that need to be made are made.

So, once and for all: KILL THE HEX!

Sunrock · 2013-05-27, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by TheDrone

It's obvious from reading the discussions back and forth about which system is better that different people want different things from this game.

True but its wrong to try to please every one. If SOE try to make every one happy they will just water down the game to a messy goo that no one likes.

Luckley PS2 is not the only game and not even the only FPS game in the world. So if you want something that PS2 is not it's easy to find something else to play.

TheDrone · 2013-05-27, 06:32 PM

Basti, I'm sorry dude, but IMHO your voice carries no weight whatsoever. The following are not, and I repeat NOT, insults.

There is nothing, in any conceivable universe in the multiverse, that could convince you of the fact that people could actually, maybe, not all like PS1, and that they might have good reasons for this. For you people who don't exactly like what you like, in the exact same way, are not welcome. You want them gone. You care nothing for any opinion but your own. I've read your rants for so long, and I've heard them a few too many times, and seriously dude... It's creepy. Seriously, the notion that different people want different things out of the game (like all communities of all games, as I've pointed out with multiple examples) must scare you. The idea of caving on your perfect little vision of your perfect little game, ... You must be literally unable to imagine this possibility. In the same way that you can not fathom, can not grasp, that gaming evolves and that a different decade holds new challenges and new possibilities in terms of game-design.

You are a genuine Zealot.

The only advantage of your rants is that you are the most obvious of the Zealots, while others operate in the shadows.

So in the same way that I, as someone who doesn't exactly share your preferences in terms of gameplay, and not your exact vision of PlanetSide 2, am not welcome in your, personal, not-to-be-shared, private little PlanetSide 1 2.0, you are not welcome in this thread.

Bye. Good luck.

Originally Posted by Vashyo

I feel you've allready written it off as dead before we even have had some statistical numbers and played on it.

Give it couple of months since some of us allready had to stomach 6 months on the hex system and we had to merge half the servers. If this doesn't work then it will be switched to another one.

I still don't feel that having both is really a good idea, mostly cause this game requires lot of people and if the modes aren't equally liked then ur gonna see some serious population imbalances. You could allways bribe people to go the continent that has the less liked gamemode with certs, but then it would also create imbalances on the liked one, like alerts do now.

PS2 will allways be a numbers game no matter what gameplay we have. Empires with less players can only stall the inevitable loss simply because they don't have enough personnel to fight effectively in every front.

Look at Basti's post. That's what we're up against. By his own admission he and his have already been whining since the tech test (and in fact since the very moment the Hex was announced) for the Lattice. This is proof that whatever the Hex will amount to, that whatever changes are made to the Hex, they will NOT budge. They will NOT.

They had the power to change the developer's minds. They therefore have the power to keep them from changing their minds.

The only resort Hexers have is a strategy of containment and damage control. This means compromise. I'm not pushing this idea because I want this, I'm pushing this idea because, through the logic of elimination, it is the only option left.

As for your criticism towards game-modes and not all fo them being equally liked. That doesn't make much sense IMHO. The game will always have to handle continents that are not all equally liked, in the same way that rule-sets wouldn't all equally be liked.

Originally Posted by Sunrock

True but its wrong to try to please every one. If SOE try to make every one happy they will just water down the game to a messy goo that no one likes.

Luckley PS2 is not the only game and not even the only FPS game in the world. So if you want something that PS2 is not it's easy to find something else to play.

Second question in my faq.

Q: Why are you suggesting the impossible, namely trying to make everyone happy?

A: Making everyone happy is quite impossible. Luckily literally no one, anywhere, is suggesting that we do that.
The idea is to accommodate two distinctly different philosophies.

PS2 is the only MMOFPS in the world. Are you suggesting that if you don't exactly like the way PS2 is (which I doubt) that you will instantly go to a different game?

I doubt it.

dsi · 2013-05-27, 06:50 PM

It's really funny seeing people looking at Eve like it's a reason to somehow mix the lattice and hex system together. Eve follows the exact same ruleset from 1.0 to 0.0 space, the only differences are the enforcers of those rules.

What is your response to the continental lattice? What happens to the hex system then? Does it get rolled off into a wholly separate server that can go die in a corner?

basti · 2013-05-27, 06:56 PM

You really dont get it, do you?

Having both maintained is not possible, and not useful. Its a lot of extra work for the devs, while the outcome can already be seen: Only a handful of folks want to keep the hex. THe vast majority wants the lattice.

Just wait and see till Esamir comes along. Guess what continent will be mostly dead? Exactly, Amerish.

What the defenders of the Hex want is not the hex, but certain aspects of it. Those aspects can be reimplemented even with the lattice, in a different way.

Small Squad vs Squad stuff? Go take out that benefit generator behind enemy lines, wait for your arch enemy outfit to appear to try to kick you out.

Dont want to roll with the zerg, but rather cap territorys with your outfit elsewhere? Pick ANY of the 7 lanes that dont have a zerg in them, feel free to do your thing, but dont expect to be save from the zerg.

The simple, and absolute truth is: The hex system is tested, tried and changed for more than 6 months. IT didnt work out. Its time to get rid of it, go full force lattice, and figure out how to get the benefits the hex ahd over the lattice into the lattice. Guess what: I already know how. Didnt took long to get those ideas up. fun fact: I know that the ideas work, because they arent new. They are 10 years old.
Best part: Im not alone. Plenty of people have plenty of ideas how to imrpove on the lattice with more depth and more strategic options. But nobody had any ideas left for the Hex. Thats why it needs to go completly: we need to focus on improving the lattice, not focus on keeping a failed system alive.

Sunrock · 2013-05-27, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by TheDrone

There is nothing, in any conceivable universe in the multiverse, that could convince you of the fact that people could actually, maybe, not all like PS1, and that they might have good reasons for this. For you people who don't exactly like what you like, in the exact same way, are not welcome. You want them gone. You care nothing for any opinion but your own. I've read your rants for so long, and I've heard them a few too many times, and seriously dude... It's creepy. Seriously, the notion that different people want different things out of the game (like all communities of all games, as I've pointed out with multiple examples) must scare you. The idea of caving on your perfect little vision of your perfect little game, ... You must be literally unable to imagine this possibility. In the same way that you can not fathom, can not grasp, that gaming evolves and that a different decade holds new challenges and new possibilities in terms of game-design.

Don't pretend that we all only wants what we like. Who the hell here actually want something that they don't like because they think some one else might like it? So stop throw rocks in your little glass house.

TheDrone · 2013-05-27, 07:04 PM

Bye Basti, I hope it was fun for you to go into auto-pilot again. I see bots (a biological one in this case) have gained an auto-generate-fallacy-module. Good for you!
Shame they haven't yet been upgraded with a "read and understand what someone else is writing so I don't answer something that is addressing literally zero points of the post I'm replying to".

[COLOR="rgb(0, 191, 255)"]Anyways. No reason for you to still be here.[/COLOR]

Originally Posted by dsi

It's really funny seeing people looking at Eve like it's a reason to somehow mix the lattice and hex system together. Eve follows the exact same ruleset from 1.0 to 0.0 space, the only differences are the enforcers of those rules.

What is your response to the continental lattice? What happens to the hex system then? Does it get rolled off into a wholly separate server that can go die in a corner?

"Eve follows the exact same ruleset from 1.0 to 0.0 space,"

Except for the very, extremely crucial different that... you know... like you said yourself.. the whole CCP-imposed security thing. The security status are rules set by the developers.

Technically it's a soft rule. Practically it's a hard rule. There are players who never leave Empire and players who never leave nulsec.

The continental Lattice could be done with Indar, Esamir and Hossin. Amerish stays Hex.

In stead of being militantly opposed to any form of empathy for people who are audacious and probably insane enough to not follow your exact same train of thought concerning the game, you could perhaps look at the OP and read + understand some of the advantages listed there.

TheSaltySeagull · 2013-05-27, 07:11 PM

I really could care less from a personal stand point whether we have hex or lattice as both have their own advantages and disadvantages. But I do not think any kind of hybrid system would really solve any of these issues and frankly I am sick of all the damn time wasted on adjusting map flow. Refine the current lattice system and move on already. Rather than keep making passes on the current conts put the level designers to work on the new conts which is something the game really needs.

I also find drones comments about basti to be hypocritical since he has clearly demonstrated himself to be as close minded as he accuses basti to be. His comments about how there is some secret plot by ps1 vets to turn ps2 into ps1 with better graphics is silly at best. I played ps1 since sept of 2003 and am as vet as anybody. Yet I have never advocated that everything from ps1 be copy pasted into ps2. I have even outright opposed some things such as including an inventory system and adding in NTU etc. Hell Hamma who was a big enough ps1 fanboy that he started up this site has stated on multiple occasion that the two games and different and has reigned people in from making unjust comparisons between the games and mindlessly advocating that ps2 be made into ps1 with better graphics.

If anything the majority of ps1 vets realize the short comings of the game and do not want to see them remade with ps2. That being said it does not mean we should just discard everything ps1 did either. And just because somebody advocates the lattice which was a tried and true system does not mean they are some bitter vet out to destroy ps2 and remake it as ps1 with better graphics. There are only a handful of vets I know that have taken such a stance and they are a minority within the vet community.

Baneblade · 2013-05-27, 07:15 PM

PS1 didn't always have a lattice either. In the beginning it let you hack anything anywhere.

So if the 'hex' system was a dismal failure in PS1 ten years ago... why do people think it would have worked in PS2? PS2 isn't slow paced enough to make hex strategy viable, when bases and outposts flip in mere minutes, the game moves too fast for a more open strategic system.

The hex system would have been perfect for an RPG game where sieges can take weeks and months, making each choice of attack and defense critical to the survival of a given faction. But in PS2, everything happens too fast for it to actually add anything to the game, not to mention the consequences for bad strategic planning and action simply do not exist. So all PS2's hex system really did was convince some wanna be RISK players that... oh... RISK has a lattice.

dsi · 2013-05-27, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by basti

You really dont get it, do you?

Having both maintained is not possible, and not useful. Its a lot of extra work for the devs, while the outcome can already be seen: Only a handful of folks want to keep the hex. THe vast majority wants the lattice.

Just wait and see till Esamir comes along. Guess what continent will be mostly dead? Exactly, Amerish.

What the defenders of the Hex want is not the hex, but certain aspects of it. Those aspects can be reimplemented even with the lattice, in a different way.

Small Squad vs Squad stuff? Go take out that benefit generator behind enemy lines, wait for your arch enemy outfit to appear to try to kick you out.

Dont want to roll with the zerg, but rather cap territorys with your outfit elsewhere? Pick ANY of the 7 lanes that dont have a zerg in them, feel free to do your thing, but dont expect to be save from the zerg.

The simple, and absolute truth is: The hex system is tested, tried and changed for more than 6 months. IT didnt work out. Its time to get rid of it, go full force lattice, and figure out how to get the benefits the hex ahd over the lattice into the lattice. Guess what: I already know how. Didnt took long to get those ideas up. fun fact: I know that the ideas work, because they arent new. They are 10 years old.
Best part: Im not alone. Plenty of people have plenty of ideas how to imrpove on the lattice with more depth and more strategic options. But nobody had any ideas left for the Hex. Thats why it needs to go completly: we need to focus on improving the lattice, not focus on keeping a failed system alive.

Exactly, a logistics system (coughNTUscough) brings back all the good bits of the hex system (small squad gameplay) without any of the bad bits (never a big fight, ghostcapping = winning)

The hex system isn't entirely gone from Indar, the territory is still there, so instead of the lattice telling you where it's possible to go like in PS1, it tells you where you have to go, there are alternate routes but the lattice doesn't fill them (because if it did it'd be a hex system with lines instead). The lattice system isn't completely in Indar either, there is no logistics system like there was in PS1, so there are no small fights to pacify the outfits who went ghostcapping during the hex period.

Hmr85 · 2013-05-27, 07:26 PM

Plain and simple..NO. The days of the Hex are over. Its time for the Lattice to reign supreme. They are correct about the early days of PS1 before the lattice. I hated those day personally ghosting was ridiculous. I am glad they brought back a system that works.

Now that we have the basic layout of the lattice in the game they can start working on adding in all the rest of its layers like cont locking and so on.