What will being "a good FPS player" mean in PlanetSide 2?

Arturo · 2011-07-30, 04:40 PM

Hey all, this is my first post on PSU. I've been itching to make an account for a while, but Higby's latest post was the last step in convincing me to make an account to voice some questions that I have for PlanetSide 2.

"A good fps player playing light assault with minimal certs will always kick the shit out of a bad fps player playing light assault with a lot of certs."

Now I've played FPS games for quite a while. Well, I've played lots of shooters in general, starting with N64 shooters like Goldeneye, then moving onto games like the SOCOM series (granted that's a TPS but it's still kind of in the same boat), the Ghost Recon series, a little bit of CS:S, CoD 4, CoD: MW2, Black Ops, Battlefield 2, Battlefield 2142 (this game kicked ass but not many people like it

), TF2, and of course, PlanetSide.

I was a decent FPS player, but I never liked nor learned some of the goofy techniques like bunny hopping and dolphin diving (especially dolphin diving holy shit I hate dolphin diving). I knew how to reload cancel but when it really comes down to it, my success in an FPS was based on where I was and how good my aim was, not how much I dolphin dived and spun around like a ballet dancer on adrenaline.

Call me a scrub or casual all you want, but the thing I loved about the original PlanetSide was that there weren't many (if any at all) weird FPS techniques that you had to do to get on other people's level or to do your part in the fight. The worst that I can remember was the good old "Planetside vision" (as me and my friends call it no matter what game it is) where you use the third person camera to look around corners. The stamina system (combined with how small a jump was) made it so jumping around like the Easter bunny like you can do in other games was impossible in PlanetSide.

I know that it's been said that there won't be a prone position, so my question is basically: Will any twitch-shooter techniques such as dolphin diving, bunny hopping or quick-scoping or any of that nonsense be in PlanetSide 2?

I really don't it to be a game where after we roll tanks out, blow through the enemy lines outside a base, have an air cavalry division roll out and establish air superiority while cloakers sabotage enemy base defenses, etc etc., all this planning and strategy and such...!

We walk into their base: 30 Vanu dudes in purple jumpsuits are bunny hopping and dolphin diving and it looks like they're doing the Worm while shooting their Pulsars at us.

Or alternatively, if there's a tower with some snipers and they're pinning an outfit down, that battle should come down to whoever is a better shot, not the one who taps right and left mouse button to quick-scope, then mashes their prone key (I know there's not plans for prone in PS2 but for the sake of argument bear with me) and reloads after one bullet and does it again.

Don't mistake me for wanting a game that basically aims for you; things like leading your shots, trajectory, burst-firing, single-shotting at great distances, compensating for recoil, that stuff is awesome. But mashing Spacebar and Ctrl while playing an FPS until my keys develop sentience and file for a restraining order against me, that's just lame.

Sirisian · 2011-07-30, 05:11 PM

I'm imagining since the game will have sprint that we'll be seeing a return of the stamina bar. That an implants will probably need energy again. The jumping system in PS1 was nice in that it was slow and used for basically only getting over obstacles.

I'm hoping the game focuses more on tactics like flanking and such. I kind of agree with your no-scoping comment. I could see that being a problem if there wasn't a delay. I remember playing COD 2 and the only valid strategy for aiming was the right click then click strategy since without quick-scoping your bullet went anywhere it wanted.

Vancha · 2011-07-30, 05:31 PM

Yeah, I'm pretty confident Planetside will avoid those ridiculous aspects of other games (except possibly instant boarding, that is).

The most delightful thing I've witnessed so far from the SOE PS2 crew is some common sense, so even if anything like that makes it into beta, I can't imagine we'll see twitch-snipers or bunny-hopping by release.

Sovereign · 2011-07-30, 05:32 PM

Well don't think there will be a prone functionial in game unless they decide to alter that course, so no concern about dolphin diving and such other antics.

As long as they have a concret output/input system for stamina that accounts for all the variables ie what armor is equipped etc.

There will be no need to fret.

LostSoul · 2011-07-30, 05:32 PM

As in PS1 I hope PS2 will bring advantages to those who can aim, and not necessary to those who can spam a+d the fastest.

Not having prone is huge in my opinion, I don't think it has a place in a "fast-paced" shooter and I love BFBC2 for not having it.

We'll see, I Love PS1, but actually quickening the gameplay a bit wouldn't be to bad!

EASyEightyEight · 2011-07-30, 06:46 PM

ADADADADAD will always exist as long as there is no momentum in movement. If SOE incorporated even a quarter of a second slowdown/acceleration into drastically altered movement (and more accurate methods of position/movement prediction,) it would stop ADADADAD cold in it's tracks.

Other than that, PS2 doesn't seem to have too many cheap maneuvers, just as PS1 didn't.

Bags · 2011-07-30, 07:20 PM

Originally Posted by EASyEightyEight

ADADADADAD will always exist as long as there is no momentum in movement. If SOE incorporated even a quarter of a second slowdown/acceleration into drastically altered movement (and more accurate methods of position/movement prediction,) it would stop ADADADAD cold in it's tracks.

Other than that, PS2 doesn't seem to have too many cheap maneuvers, just as PS1 didn't.

The only reason ADADADADADA is a problem is because of PS1's engine. Remove the shitty extrapolation which causes warp and the ADADADAD as is in PS1 is laughably easy to hit.

Can't wait to be able to use my MCG on targets who can't strafe in ps2 though!

Effective · 2011-07-30, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by EASyEightyEight

ADADADADAD will always exist as long as there is no momentum in movement. If SOE incorporated even a quarter of a second slowdown/acceleration into drastically altered movement (and more accurate methods of position/movement prediction,) it would stop ADADADAD cold in it's tracks.

You've got the wrong idea of how warping works.

Originally Posted by Effective

Here's how you fix warping. Planetside uses a form of clientside called extrapolation. Basically, walk forward for 5 seconds and stop. Bam, you just warped a little. You may not see it, and it may not be a lot. As your PC sends packets to the server, the server predicts where you're going to move to next. If you suddenly stop, the last packet before that received by the server will still have you moving forward, when the server receives the packet after you stopped, you'll warp back to that position. warping is just the server's inability to predict where your avatar should be at.

The solution? don't use extrapolation in PS2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_%28...29#Client-side

CutterJohn · 2011-07-30, 08:17 PM

I have no issue with their being some advanced movement techniques or gun handling techniques that play off the quirks in the game engine. Glitches/unintended gameplay/advanced 'tactics' can often be endearing and make a game awesome. Rocket jumping used to be a glitch. Tribes would be a barely remembered fps if they had patched out the skiing glitch. Obviously they can also be rage inducing.. Dolphin diving was a bit silly, as was adadadad. Bunny hopping? Bleh. It wrecks your cof, so let them hop.

There can be some awesome gameplay from tactics devs never considered.

Bags · 2011-07-30, 08:18 PM

ADADADA is only silly because of extrapolation. You're not a very hard target when you don't warp.

MasterChief096 · 2011-07-30, 09:13 PM

even if you had infinite stamina in planetside, jumping was just a bad idea in combat overall.

It was slower than strafing and it caused your COF to go crazy. If its the same in PlanetSide 2 no one is going to jump.

I never really had any problem with the ADAD strafing in PS. Sure there were those certain individuals that were damn impossible to hit but meh, w/e. I enjoyed trying to aim at them.

Espion · 2011-07-31, 12:08 AM

If there is any form of prone in PS2 I will kill someone

Bags · 2011-07-31, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Espion

If there is any form of prone in PS2 I will kill someone

It's confirmed as out.

Sirisian · 2011-07-31, 12:40 AM

Originally Posted by Effective

You've got the wrong idea of how warping works.

Actually assuming Planetside is server-side then his idea of adding momentum is actually the real solution. Don't get me wrong, what you quoted is completely true, but adding momentum to characters essentially gets rid of the warp by hiding it with an acceleration delay. (I've used it before in small networked games I've written).

Extrapolation actually works well, and I'd recommend it with a purely server-side gameplay model. The alternative to extrapolation is a delayed simulation model a la Source networking which some people prefer. I personally don't like it that much. Eliminating instant changes in motion is the key to solving warping.

Also I've never inspected the packets of Planetside (mostly because I'm not sure what measures they've enabled for detecting such actions). From playing the game for a long time and just looking at things I have a sneaking suspicion the bigger problem with warping is caused by client-side movement. As in the player sends their position to the server (a big no no in authoritative networking). I remember a long time ago the core 2 duo problem where players were moving insanely quick across the map and this indicated that a long time ago everything was pretty much client-side. Actually it still is because there are numerous hacks used for changing the client's position and the server doesn't really verify any of these changes. This is all being changed in the new game so it's a pointless argument to compare PS1 to PS2's networking.

Arturo · 2011-07-31, 03:09 AM

This is turning into a pretty cool discussion so far! (sort of)

I know that PS1 didn't have many quirky shooter techniques, but with the addition of ADS and sprint (which are both good of course) I was just wondering if those shooter techniques (besides dolphin diving since prone won't exist as far as we know right now) will follow. I don't mean this thread to be a doomsday cry of "oh god SOE is conspiring to make this game into call of duty 40K: dawn of marathon/lightweight/commando!".