Israel

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 11:12 AM

As an Israeli MAN, I just wanted to know your opinions about my country and all the shit storms around it, you know because of, well... Israel and Palestine and Iran and stuffs.
Fell free to discuss anything about Israel here.

Please be mature, don't be racist and respect other opinions.

If you have any questions or anything, I'l be happy to answer you with MY NEUTRAL OPINIONS.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-07-11, 11:16 AM

It would be nice if you and your Muslim neighbors could stop killing and hating each other long enough to work together to build a better and more functional society. You might find they'll be less focused on having their own country if they felt welcomed in yours. I'm speaking more to your government and your culture as a whole rather than to just you, mind. I don't imagine its your fault personally.

It's just such a waste of time, having two cultures of people living in such close proximity who hate each other because they have different invisible friends. It's depressing, and a major source for a lot of unnecessary conflict in that region.

Vreki · 2012-07-11, 11:57 AM

If you will forgive the expression, both sides are bastards.
But the Israeli are our kind of bastards, and their enemies are mostly our enemies.

And by "our kind" I do not mean race or religion, but a democracy with western values.

Red Beard · 2012-07-11, 12:04 PM

The problem I see is that it's ultimately a matter of land titles, and for better or worse, that would ultimately defer to which religious text you consider.

I have a lot of people in my facebook network, and most of them have a very distorted portrayal of what's going on there. For example, a picture of Palestinians suffering violence at the hands of soldiers/IDF, without any mention of bombers or rocket attacks.

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 12:04 PM

@ItsTheSheppy:
Believe me, hostility is not our choice, not the Israeli's and not the Palestine's.
It is the choice of the terrorist organisations around Israel and some of the countries that surround us.
There is a saying in Israel: "If Arabs would put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel would put down her weapons there would be no Israel".
This saying is not far from reality, and we don't really have a choice.

As funny as it may be, that is the reality in most of the hostile Islamic countries, and little kids are brain washed from youth, to hate all those who are not Islamic them selves, and some times even each other.

Originally Posted by Vreki

If you will forgive the expression, both sides are bastards.
But the Israeli are our kind of bastards, and their enemies are mostly our enemies.

And by "our kind" I do not mean race or religion, but a democracy with western values.

Not confusing at all.

ItsTheSheppy · 2012-07-11, 12:10 PM

I never meant to imply that Israel is solely at fault. You just happen to be from Israel so I'm talking mostly to you. If you find a Palestinian friend to come on here, I'll talk to him.

As has been said, both sides are kind of being bastards, and always have been. And really, it all boils down to one side thinking their imaginary friend is slightly LESS imaginary than the other side's. Cue centuries of bloodshed, that we will never be rid of for as long as religion is a thing people take seriously.

So yeah. that problem's never going away. Welcome to the forum.

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by Red Beard

The problem I see is that it's ultimately a matter of land titles, and for better or worse, that would ultimately defer to which religious text you consider.

I have a lot of people in my facebook network, and most of them have a very distorted portrayal of what's going on there. For example, a picture of Palestinians suffering violence at the hands of soldiers/IDF, without any mention of bombers or rocket attacks.

Considering the only thing the media is shows as of today is bad things, and Israel is a big god mine of bad things, the media concentrate on any kind of bad thing that may happen in Israel, usually stripping off facts to make it look more shocking and interesting.

Vreki · 2012-07-11, 12:19 PM

I remember a novel by Tom Clancy where the Palestinians got "smart" and started to use Gandhi tactics. That would be pretty devastating for Israels moral position, but I don't see it happening.

On the other hand, the settlements are preventing Israel from being considered the good guy instead of the lesser evil. I don't see what they expect to gain from this, but I heard that internal politic battles in Israel are pretty vicious too.

So status quo forever, or at least until it all ends in mushroom clouds.

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by ItsTheSheppy

I never meant to imply that Israel is solely at fault. You just happen to be from Israel so I'm talking mostly to you. If you find a Palestinian friend to come on here, I'll talk to him.

As has been said, both sides are kind of being bastards, and always have been. And really, it all boils down to one side thinking their imaginary friend is slightly LESS imaginary than the other side's. Cue centuries of bloodshed, that we will never be rid of for as long as religion is a thing people take seriously.

So yeah. that problem's never going away. Welcome to the forum.

I never meant to imply you were implying that that Israel is solely at fault.
And I agree with you.

Warborn · 2012-07-11, 12:47 PM

Israel is currently engaged in apartheid against the Palestinians and has left a mountain of civilians behind it in its pursuit of retaliating against Hamas or whoever. Or, hell, even in simply keeping the Palestinians repressed it often results to lethal force without any real provocation (see: the Gaza flotilla massacre). On the other hand, terrorists themselves have killed Israeli civilians via suicide bombings and rocket attacks. Not to mention the previous Arab-Israeli conflicts wherein the neighboring Arab countries made their best attempt at wiping out Israel.

But, ultimately my opinion is that Israel is more to blame than the Palestinians. Israel is doing everything they can to keep the Palestinians in a state of poverty and continues to build more and more illegal settlements beyond their previously agreed upon territorial restrictions. It is hard to see Israel as the victim in this when the United States will do essentially anything to keep Israel from being held accountable for its human rights/international law violations, and makes sure the IDF has the most potent weapons at its disposal.

As for Iran, I don't like theocracies anymore than the next guy, but considering that Iran exists on the same planet as the United States I find it perfectly reasonable that they would want to pursue nuclear weapons. When Iran's neighbors were invaded so readily and torn apart by the US and its allies, what country in their right mind wouldn't want to have nukes to ward off potential attacks?

I think, given enough time, Iran will outgrow its Ayatollahs and their repressive regimes. I don't think they are in the market for nuclear war. I would be very disappointed if Israel and Iran went to war over this issue.

Neurotoxin · 2012-07-11, 12:59 PM

I hope that you campaign for Palestinian liberation, for a single state where everyone can coexist peacefully rather than a 100% Jewish state. Those are the two biggest issues for me there, the brutal apartheid regime that kicks people out and walls them off from their family's homes (recent enough to have a key, I'm not talking about claiming biblical land rights) and the promotion of Israel as a 100% Jewish-only state.

As for Terrorism on both sides... A people who had been oppressed by various empires, who finally gained their independence, only for a land-grab by wealthy European **** to ignite the spark that would light the land ablaze with apartheid oppression. And the moment Israel started being backed by the US instead of Europe, they became a tool of US military operations. The Palestinians have a right to fight back, they have a right to self-determination in the face of Imperialism. If someone kicked me out of my family's home of many generations, told me I couldn't live there ever again, and moved me to an uninhabited stretch of non-arable land, you'll be damn right that I'm gonna take up arms against my oppressors despite the overwhelming odds.

That being said, I hope that you campaign for Palestinian liberation. There is no way they are going to be free from the smothering boot of imperialism without a popular campaign from the population of Israel. One side is armed with some of the most advanced military weaponry in existence, the other has always been barred from having weapons or even construction supplies to build new infrastructure when they get kicked out of their former homes. Clearly this has to end if anything is going to improve.

That is my perspective on Israel at least.

Vash02 · 2012-07-11, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by MightyMan

@ItsTheSheppy:
There is a saying in Israel: "If Arabs would put down their weapons, there would be peace. If Israel would put down her weapons there would be no Israel".
This saying is not far from reality, and we don't really have a choice.

You could also say that the Palestinians put down their weapons and then there was no Palestine.
Why should Palestinians put down their weapons to lose what little they have left?

MightyMan · 2012-07-11, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Vreki

I remember a novel by Tom Clancy where the Palestinians got "smart" and started to use Gandhi tactics. That would be pretty devastating for Israels moral position, but I don't see it happening.

On the other hand, the settlements are preventing Israel from being considered the good guy instead of the lesser evil. I don't see what they expect to gain from this, but I heard that internal politic battles in Israel are pretty vicious too.

So status quo forever, or at least until it all ends in mushroom clouds.

Yep. One thing it will not end with is mushroom clouds tough. The "world" is keeping Israel on a very short leash to make sure that no such weapons are in development and that Israel to not engage in wars against other countries.
Well as long there is no war, Israel the others will stay in this "bullshit state" for ever. Hostile Islamic countries will yell "ARGH ISRAEL DIE", Palestine will point a finger at bully-Israel in front of the UN and Israel will try to satisfy everyone but will fail horribly in each case.

Saifoda · 2012-07-11, 02:51 PM

Well most of what needs to be said in here has been said already so far. The one thing I would like to add though is that more frequently (not always) than not it is the Palestinian groups (PLO etc...) which refuse to have proper talks with Israel. Many of their "preconditions" are simply absurd -- the complete annihilation of Israel, for example...

Pella · 2012-07-11, 03:11 PM

Think of it as if the Chinese moved 1b people into north America and claimed that this was there land.

How would you feel and most importantly how would you react?. And while trying not to play the "my army is bigger than yours card". The Chinese could look after themselves.

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