Gameplay: Incrementally increasing Sunderer spawn timer

Anderz · 2013-02-10, 12:22 AM

THE PROBLEM:

The problem with many base battles, as it stands, is that it really boils down to a simple numbers game: a large enough zerg will almost always win. All they have to do is keep hammering away, and soon enough, the base will fall.

I believe this design flaw can be attributed, in part, to the current spawn system, namely the AMS Sunderer. In its current state, the AMS is simply too powerful in that it offers unlimited spawns and a ridiculously short spawn timer. Thus, as an attacker, death is merely a minor inconvenience when a Sunderer is deployed. In fact, waiting for a revive is often less ideal than simply respawning back on the Sunderer, and rushing in, again and again and again until the base is won.

PROPOSED SOLUTION:

This is why I propose this simple change to the Sunderer AMS mechanic: an incrementally increasing spawn timer.

It would work like this: Every time you choose to spawn on a deployed Sunderer, 5 seconds would be added to the spawn timer for the next time you spawn on that Sunderer.

In other words, if the first time you spawn on the Sunderer is a 5 second wait, the next time will be a wait of 10 seconds, then 15 seconds and so on. Die too many times during an attack and the timer will be quite considerable, meaning you have to find an alternate spawn location should you wish to continue the assault.

Note: This timer would be on an individual Sunderer basis, meaning a second Sunderer will have its own spawn timer. The timer would reset once the facility in the current hex the Sunderer is located in in is either successfully captured or defended.

DESIRED EFFECT:

It will require more depth to attack strategies. Attackers will have to re-consider their approach in long battles, making for a more dynamic game.
Gives dying greater consequence. Players will be more inclined to stick together and wait for revives, thus promoting teamwork.
Gives defenders the ability to wean out an attacking force by holding their ground, which is realistic of defensive strategy.

TL;DR

Add a incremental 5 sec spawn timer to AMS Sunderers to slow down the zerg, promote teamwork/revives and force attackers to reconsider their assault.

ChrisLand · 2013-02-10, 02:08 AM

Not a bad idea. I do agree with you in that I think spawning on the sunderer can be too powerful.

This would be a good start to "ween" people off the sunderer but I think there are other long term solutions.

Here are some examples:

1. Everytime you spawn it could use up infantry resources...when you are out you can't spawn there anymore until you get another deposit.

2. Give every sunderer a AMS timer. Say you deploy and you have 10 minutes of active AMS time and it starts ticking down. When the timer reaches 0, the weapon terminals go away and it ceases to be a spawn point. Or if he undeploys the timer stops at whatever it was at. Give the driver the ability to drive back to a warpgate-connected base (maybe only tech plants), charge him Mechanized resources to "refill" his AMS and then he has another 10 mins.

3. Remove sunderer AMSes completely. Would foster more teamwork and would get people to transport others around, bring more galaxies into the mix, and make people much more cautious about dieing. However I do not think the community is ready for this yet.

Either way I would love to see sunderer spawns eventually linked to resources somehow (imo everything should be linked to resources so territory actually matters). However I think your idea is a good step in that direction and could be combined with some of my examples above.

Anderz · 2013-02-10, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisLand

1. Everytime you spawn it could use up infantry resources...when you are out you can't spawn there anymore until you get another deposit.

I really like this idea, because it makes intrinsic sense, and would add value to the resource system. BUT my problem with it is that, when you're pushed back to the warp gate, you're not going to have many resources flowing in. Yet that is exactly when a Sundy AMS is most crucial. So it's a bit of a Catch 22, in that respect.

A possible solution would be to make resources pool globally, rather than per continent. That way you can be fighting an uphill battle on one continent, but still have resources flowing in from another you're dominating. This could help solve the "Indar" problem too.

Originally Posted by ChrisLand

2. Give every sunderer a AMS timer. Say you deploy and you have 10 minutes of active AMS time and it starts ticking down. When the timer reaches 0, the weapon terminals go away and it ceases to be a spawn point. Or if he undeploys the timer stops at whatever it was at. Give the driver the ability to drive back to a warpgate-connected base (maybe only tech plants), charge him Mechanized resources to "refill" his AMS and then he has another 10 mins.

Hmm, to elaborate (or simplify) this idea, how about giving the Sunderer AMS "ammunition", of sorts? So they get, say, 250 spawns, and once that depletes, they have to return to an Ammo tower to "refuel" on nanites.

The only problem with this, I think, is that it punishes the driver, not the the players spawning on him. By that I mean it doesn't really change the mindset of the attackers -- especially pubs -- when spawning: they'll still just run in willy nilly like they always do. That's why I think the consequence of spawning on Sunderer needs to be made apparent on an individual level, so that each player is more conscious of their actions.

Originally Posted by ChrisLand

3. Remove sunderer AMSes completely. Would foster more teamwork and would get people to transport others around, bring more galaxies into the mix, and make people much more cautious about dieing. However I do not think the community is ready for this yet.

I wouldn't mind this personally, but as you say, the community will likely object as this could really ruin the game for pubs looking for a quick fight. I think a balance needs to be struck here, and this is a bit too extreme.

Thanks Chris for your sharing your ideas and responding to mine. Really appreciate it!

Baneblade · 2013-02-11, 07:46 AM

So what you want is even more Sunderer AMSes.

The AMS timer should already be longer than normal spawns. That needs fixing.

PS1 had a spawn timer extension when you die, the time could be up to 30 seconds in large fights. PS2 should have it too, but not so long that you spend more time dead than you do alive.

coconut · 2013-02-11, 12:13 PM

I had a suggestion of my own regarding sunderers, but it touches some of the issues you are mentioning, so I'll post it in this thread.

An hexagon would have its own "AMS energy", that gets depleted the more people spawn there. It recharges itself when it's not being used. Of course, each hex has actually three independent energy levels, one for each faction. The less energy it has, the longer is the spawn timer.
With this system, it's OK to have multiple sunderers deployed near each-other, as it does not bring any spawn rate benefit. The spawn rate is now controlled at the hex-level, not at the individual sundy-level.
It also prevents an attack or a defense to remain sustained for too long. If your side is dying more often than the other side, you should eventually lose.

In other words, my suggestion is similar to yours, but as I see it, slowing the timer on a per-sunderer basis can still be countered by bringing in lots of sunderers.

It has also a number of nice side-effects, e.g. putting an end to sunderer races, blowing up poorly placed friendly sunderers, and makes it easier to move up a sunderer closer to the objective without risking to disrupt the entire attack.

Rothnang · 2013-02-11, 01:03 PM

I like the general premise of this, because there really is a problem with the fact that if you have a large enough zerg going so that there are multiple sunderers and ample replacements available it's damn near impossible to actually repel an assault, but it shouldn't be handled on an individual basis.

Sunderers should simply have a limitation on how many spawns they can handle at the same time, to avoid that clown car effect where they are just pooping out a continuous stream of infantry. The more people are spawning on a location the slower it should become. If there are just 10 people operating out of a Sunderer there is no need to punish them by making their spawn timer absurdly long. When there are 100 people operating out of a single Sunderer on the other hand...

The system for a Sunderer could count up how many people spawned on a Sunderer in the last minute, then adjust its respawn timer accordingly. That number is saved when the Sunderer mobilizes and the first minute after it deploys again still has the same number. (To prevent simply putting two sunderers next to each other and then juggling them back and forth to keep the spawn timer down)

Babyfark McGeez · 2013-02-11, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by Baneblade

...
The AMS timer should already be longer than normal spawns. That needs fixing.

PS1 had a spawn timer extension when you die, the time could be up to 30 seconds in large fights. PS2 should have it too, but not so long that you spend more time dead than you do alive.

Exactly this. It's also one of the puzzle pieces to improve defense imo (attackers can spawn faster than defenders).