Gameplay: Dividing the Empire Specific Fighter (ESF) into two vehicles?

[Memeotis]

The Scythe, Mosquito and Reaver seem like vehicles that have had too many things crammed into them at the same time. The air to ground mainly consists of hit 'n run tactics, and the air to air is a little lackluster.

I personally think the skies in Planetside need more variety. Although I'm not a fan of the series, I think BF3 did air combat really well. Right now the ESFs are too powerful; a good pilot can dominate both the skies and the ground, because of the way their flight mechanics work. It basically means that they can go into hover-mode, gun down whatever, and then dart away with their boost, with hardly any transition-period between jet and hover-mode.

I think the ESFs ought to be split into two vehicles: hovercraft and jetfighter (with restricted VTOL functionality). Why? Because their respective pros and cons would help balance the gameplay.

Jet

Good for A2A
Good at avoiding anti-air
Good at Air to ground when co-ordinating with spotter


Unable to suppress ground with continuous fire (better suited for hit 'n run)
Has to remain moving to be effective
Hover-mode is relatively 'clunky' and the transition time between hover- and jet-mode is dangerously long. Hover-mode is primarily designed for landing and take-off


Hovercraft

Great for air-to-ground
Great at hovering (good at staying near a convoy of ground troops)


Vulnerable to ground anti-air (much slower than jet)
Vulnerable to jet anti-air

Flying a helicopter well in BF3 meant using your surroundings well to cut off lock-ons, and to use the terrain to get the drop on ground vehicles, in Planetside the way to avoid ground to air seems to be to simply hit the boost and get out of dodge. Flying a jet in BF3, admittedly, wasn't too exciting, but that was because it involved flying around in circles in large open skies, trying to get onto the tail of the other jet. The reason BF3's jet combat was boring was due to two things: small amount of pilots and small maps (flying a jet meant turning every 15 seconds).

It would be nice to have an aircraft that is designed to actually co-operate with the ground, but is very vulnerable on its own due to its speed, whilst having a second vehicle that is great for the skies, but is not as lone-wolfy, because for it to kill ground targets it has to co-ordinate with people calling out targets on the ground.

This is just my opinion, what do you guys think?

[GTheo]

This can be something that is achieved through certs. The 'hovercraft' you suggest is really what the gunship should be.

I do however think the 'Jet' should be more of a fast air with the ability to perform precision strikes in coordination with squad leaders. (laser designators, soflams and the like)

So really, just make the esf's faster and make attacking the ground harder, but when properly coordinated make it even more powerful. I cant fly and hate getting smashed by rocket pods but if the enemy are going to work as a team, designate my vehicle, and have a ESF do a strafe, I deserve to die, and they deserve the win.

[Whiteagle]

Eh, I don't agree...

As it's been pointed out, the Liberator is suppose to fill the roll of "Gunship"; a hovering, slow moving platform that excels at Air-to-Ground.

Really a bigger problem with ESF domination was their purposefully nerfed ground counters, making any real ground resistance impotent outside of duel Burster MAXes.
Hopefully the recent patch has helped with this, as I've found Phalanx AA Turrets MUCH more effective then before.

Personally though, I think a great addition to the Air game would be a Faction Specific aerial equivalent to the Flash, Hover-bikes!

Basically, they'd be a one-man platform that handles like a smaller version of the ESF, have the pilot mostly exposed, and armed only with a fixed M20 Drake.

These Hover-bikes would be used as a mix of Interceptor, Trainer, and one-man aerial insertion craft.
They'd be vaporized by any sort of Anti-Air, but would be cheap (about 50 Aircraft Resources) and have a short cool-down (around the same as the Flash), allowing them to be used in far greater numbers then ESFs.

They'd also suffer the same flaw as armed Flashes; it would be much easier for an Infantryman to snipe you off your ride then for you to line up a shot, making them rather poor for sustained Ground Attack.


What do you guys think?

[SGOniell]

Disagree with pretty much everything here. Just look at the F35, the nozzel moves damn fast when it switches as seen here:

[Memeotis]

Well my ideas were basically straight out of BF3. The hovercraft is that of the helicopter and the changes to the jets means turning it more into the harrier - which compared to the current ESFs is much less manueverable when in hover-mode.

I still think the helicopter (hovercraft) would be sufficiently different from the current liberator. The liberator is a clunky aircraft with heavy fire power and a lot of health, where the pilot's focus is primarily about catering to the gunner. What I'm suggesting is a much more manuverable (albeit with a slower top-speed) than the liberator, and less fire-power and health. This would make it ideal for sticking with and guarding armor columns.

Basically, the liberator would be much better at fly-bys, whilst the hovercraft would have to utilize its manuverability stay alive and do damage.

[Memeotis]

Originally Posted by SGOniell

Disagree with pretty much everything here. Just look at the F35, the nozzel moves damn fast when it switches as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm7_P...yer_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=X9-ohOc7lr4#

^An F35 would not be able to do what this guy does at around 0:33. The ESFs are described as VTOL (Vertical Take-Off and Landing) vehicle, but in the case of planetside, this feature - which is designed so that aircrafts are able to function without a run-way - has instead become a powerful asset in combat.

If this feature was nerfed, fitting the vehicle into a more air-to-air role, it is not like it would become boring. Unlike Battlefield, there are tons of targets in the sky at all times, meaning you wouldn't end up chasing each other in circles. And also, you wouldn't be able to do physically impossible manuvers such as:

[raw]

I absolutely agree OP. I'd like to see a two seater helicopter who gets the rocket pods and focuses primarily on A2G purposes.

[HiroshiChugi]

Originally Posted by Memeotis

The Scythe, Mosquito and Reaver seem like vehicles that have had too many things crammed into them at the same time. The air to ground mainly consists of hit 'n run tactics, and the air to air is a little lackluster.

I personally think the skies in Planetside need more variety. Although I'm not a fan of the series, I think BF3 did air combat really well. Right now the ESFs are too powerful; a good pilot can dominate both the skies and the ground, because of the way their flight mechanics work. It basically means that they can go into hover-mode, gun down whatever, and then dart away with their boost, with hardly any transition-period between jet and hover-mode.

I think the ESFs ought to be split into two vehicles: hovercraft and jetfighter (with restricted VTOL functionality). Why? Because their respective pros and cons would help balance the gameplay.

Jet

Good for A2A
Good at avoiding anti-air
Good at Air to ground when co-ordinating with spotter


Unable to suppress ground with continuous fire (better suited for hit 'n run)
Has to remain moving to be effective
Hover-mode is relatively 'clunky' and the transition time between hover- and jet-mode is dangerously long. Hover-mode is primarily designed for landing and take-off


Hovercraft

Great for air-to-ground
Great at hovering (good at staying near a convoy of ground troops)


Vulnerable to ground anti-air (much slower than jet)
Vulnerable to jet anti-air

Flying a helicopter well in BF3 meant using your surroundings well to cut off lock-ons, and to use the terrain to get the drop on ground vehicles, in Planetside the way to avoid ground to air seems to be to simply hit the boost and get out of dodge. Flying a jet in BF3, admittedly, wasn't too exciting, but that was because it involved flying around in circles in large open skies, trying to get onto the tail of the other jet. The reason BF3's jet combat was boring was due to two things: small amount of pilots and small maps (flying a jet meant turning every 15 seconds).

It would be nice to have an aircraft that is designed to actually co-operate with the ground, but is very vulnerable on its own due to its speed, whilst having a second vehicle that is great for the skies, but is not as lone-wolfy, because for it to kill ground targets it has to co-ordinate with people calling out targets on the ground.

This is just my opinion, what do you guys think?

My God I would LOVE for this to happen!!! all too often i get shot down when I'm just cruisin' in my reaver. I think that also, the addition of the "hoverbike" would be GREAT! it would allow you to do what you could do with the flash, only in the air. you could zip past all those dogfights and such and get to wherever you need to go. this is an amazing thread if i do say so myself. I would very much like to see this happen in an udate very soon. (perhaps in the update when they add the big mothership-thingy).

[Memeotis]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Eh, I don't agree...

As it's been pointed out, the Liberator is suppose to fill the roll of "Gunship"; a hovering, slow moving platform that excels at Air-to-Ground.

Really a bigger problem with ESF domination was their purposefully nerfed ground counters, making any real ground resistance impotent outside of duel Burster MAXes.
Hopefully the recent patch has helped with this, as I've found Phalanx AA Turrets MUCH more effective then before.

Personally though, I think a great addition to the Air game would be a Faction Specific aerial equivalent to the Flash, Hover-bikes!

Basically, they'd be a one-man platform that handles like a smaller version of the ESF, have the pilot mostly exposed, and armed only with a fixed M20 Drake.

These Hover-bikes would be used as a mix of Interceptor, Trainer, and one-man aerial insertion craft.
They'd be vaporized by any sort of Anti-Air, but would be cheap (about 50 Aircraft Resources) and have a short cool-down (around the same as the Flash), allowing them to be used in far greater numbers then ESFs.

They'd also suffer the same flaw as armed Flashes; it would be much easier for an Infantryman to snipe you off your ride then for you to line up a shot, making them rather poor for sustained Ground Attack.


What do you guys think?

The hover-craft I'm suggesting is to the liberator, what the lightning is to the MBT. Easy to kill, manned by fewer people (2 seats vs 3 seats), and does not carry anywhere near the same amount of fire power. And where the Liberator can sustain quite a few A2A rockets, the hovercraft is dead after 2 hits. It is basically the helicopter from BF3, but where the helicopters in that game can dominate the game, there are simply too many things in PS2 for that to happen (number of infantry, amount of enemy aircrafts, skyguards, etc)

Although I think the idea of a hoverbike is cool, I don't think the game needs more one-manned vehicles. Having a cheap, speedy, one-seat aircraft would go against what SOE is trying to create in this game because it would become the preferred vehicle of lone-wolves. Currently the zerg is largely bound by how the landscape is structured - if anyone can hop onto a hoverbike, I think the amount of giant battles would be reduced greatly, because people would simply bypass oneanother.

[MoonLiteNite]

I kinda view the EFS as choppers from BF3...
They are like a good version of the F35 hahah

I have no problem with EFS when on the ground, and i have no problem with other EFS when in the air.

If i am on the ground i pull out an AA max or AA rockets from the HA class.
If i am in the air i generally use the default starting guns and take out the polite and his A2AM are super easy to dodge, i don't even use flares...

[adaroe]

why not just greatly reduce the airbrakes on all esf's so it takes longer to go into hover mode and makes them fly like, well you know, actual aircraft. I do love the idea of a two seater hovercraft thats slower than esfs, but far more maneuvarable.

you could also slow the acceleration a little bit. making hover mode a little more dangerous to go into.(that includes booster acceleration) coupled with a slightly higher top speed say 250ish it could be interesting.

[Archonzero]

I'd love to see a 2 seater ESF that was more of an A2G vehicle, with some optional limited A2A upgrades.

[Memeotis]

Just today I was bombarded by a Scythe with its nose perpendicular to ground, and the second my teammates began opening fire on it, it hit the boost and gone it was. Air combat is too... I wouldn't necessarily say overpowered, but it's just too versatile.

It currently feels like the only reason for anti-air is to keep aircrafts at bay, not kill them. Not only do I think that it would balance the game to split the ESF into a chopper and a VTOL-jet, it would make the jet fights much more interesting. Currently it seems that dogfights is mostly about who can pull the most physically impossible maneuver to get behind the enemy jet. If the ESF was sufficiently restricted in terms braking power and vertical maneuverability, dog fights would turn into jets chasing each other through canyons and around facilities; trying to use the environment to gain an edge.

Flying a jet would become more about keeping the skies clear, whilst flying a chopper would be more about protecting ground troops and scouting ahead. Of course the chopper would still be a viable A2A candidate, as well as the jet being A2G, but both would have significant restrictions that would benefit the overall balance of the game.

[Rothnang]

Originally Posted by SGOniell

Disagree with pretty much everything here. Just look at the F35, the nozzel moves damn fast when it switches as seen here:

Yea, now find me a video where that thing can roll on its side while in hover mode and attain stable lift again before it crashes while less than 100 meters off the ground.

The aircraft in PS2 have absolutely insane control over their movements, thousands of times better than anything that exists in real life.




Anyways, I really would like to see a genuine gunship type aircraft in this game that is designed to operate low to the ground and use cover and terrain to strike, but the controls would have to be more like those of a Magrider + Space and Crouch for flying up and down for that to be really viable.

The airframes need to be reviewed on the current aircraft as well. Hover airframe tends to turn the fastest and also only move slightly slower than racer because of all that extra thrust you can throw around, which means all the distinction between dogfighting, hovering and speedy aircraft are going right out the window, hover just does it all.

[IamEternal]

I was thinking that mabye make Jets A2G systems be laser guided. This would remove their effectiveness with hitting ground targets unless they are assisted by someone on the ground lighting up a target for their missiles. If they did bring out a hovercraft type air vehicle, give it direct fire ground support so it wont require laser assists from a ground element, but Its only anti air would be a slow fire, some what low damage flak type weapon. this will make them less suited for anti air but lethal on the ground while they jet is a terror in the sky but has to have a spotter to have any real effectiveness on the ground, outside of its standar machine gun class weapon.