Battle Rifle for Heavy Assault

[OutlawDr]

Originally Posted by Erendil

Okay, then let me address the full quote directly then, not just your bolded phrase:

In addition to their utility on the field, they also excel at short to medium range combat. The Light Assault is able to choose from a diverse arsenal of various weapon types, including rifles, shotguns, and SMGs. These options allow them to adapt to whatever their environment demands.

That first sentence has a whole new meaning when you read the whole thing instead of just the latter phrase you highlighted. So they excel and short and medium ranges in addition to "out in the field," which presumably means "long" range since that's the only range that's left (though I hesitate to say purely "long range" since I like to reserve that designation for sniper rifles). In addition, they are being given rifles, which I assume already means assault rifles but could easily also include battle rifles.

Heh, ok this butchering of SOE quotes is getting silly. I'm going to stop responding to them if it keeps up. Please read the 2 paragraphs preceding that one (quoted below). It talks about jumpjets and utility grenades like flash and smoke grenades. Thats the "utility on the field". Its a real stretch to try to extend "Utility" to mean long range weapons. Damage dealing weapons are not usually described as utility. Also carbines are considered to be rifles btw. They are basically shortened assault rifles.

The Light Assault’s extreme mobility is their defining trait and allows them to move faster than most other soldiers. Each one of the Light Assault’s various Jumpjet configurations grants them the ability to take on different obstacles, shifting their role in combat. The Standard Jumpjets allow them to make their way over barriers and enemy’s heads alike. They can also equip more specialized configurations, such as the high boost Icarus Jumpjets, to reach walled objectives and perched Infiltrators, or the hovering Glider Jets, to descend on vulnerable ground targets safely.

The Light Assault also excels at supporting their empire through their unique class grenades. The blinding Flash grenades can render entire squads helpless and allow for a momentary break in defenses. They also have access to Smoke grenades, which can be used to block sniper alleys and direct the flow of combat. Both of the Light Assault’s class explosives are important in allowing their empire to make the final push in capturing difficult objectives.

In addition to their utility on the field, they also excel at short to medium range combat. The Light Assault is able to choose from a diverse arsenal of various weapon types, including rifles, shotguns, and SMGs. These options allow them to adapt to whatever their environment demands. The best Light Assault soldiers make sure to use their powerful weapons with the element of surprise, disabling enemies before they know what hit them.

==

Originally Posted by Sharkdog

]Outlawdr you keep emphasizing on how great a point your making but its not a point at all its quite rhetorical.
It reads LA excel at short to medium range NOT can only fight at short to medium range.
That my friend is selective reading at its best and quoting your own personally preferred interpretation as holy gospel.

I've already given vaild gameplay arguments as to why LA shouldn't get long range weapons. Just because you disagree doesn't make it "rhetorical". There is also that quagmire of the SOE quotation about LAs. However IMHO, if anyone reads the LA descriptions and thinks SOE intended to give LA long range, they are the ones with selective reading.

Anyway, Im glad most agree HA should get battle rifles. Should other classes get it? I don't know. Maybe infiltrators and engineers, but I don't think LA should. However I do agree LA are bit bare in utility and roles, but giving them BR isn't the answer. This is why I objected to removing ammo pack from LA. Since they are a close range class, it meant they had to be close to the action, and which means they were going to close to allies as well. However if you give them long range, hell no should they get ammo box.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by OutlawDr

Heh, ok this butchering of SOE quotes is getting silly. I'm going to stop responding to them if it keeps up. Please read the 2 paragraphs preceding that one (quoted below). It talks about jumpjets and utility grenades like flash and smoke grenades. Thats the "utility on the field". Its a real stretch to try to extend "Utility" to mean long range weapons. Damage dealing weapons are not usually described as utility. Also carbines are considered to be rifles btw. They are basically shortened assault rifles.

Yep, I’ve read the whole description. Show me where it says that LA troops are for short/medium range only. That’s right, it doesn’t. In fact, the vast majority of that page doesn't mention range at all.

And you're right. Picking apart a 1-page summary written 4 months ago like it's some sort of scripture written in stone is doing neither of us any good. A lot has changed in 4 months and that text is not exactly all-inclusive in its content.

You obviously have some pretty entrenched ideas about what LA troops should be capable of and some deep balance concerns regarding LA's effective range. Sharkdog and I have tried to allay those fears and show you how it could add more variety to LA combat and enrich the experience of playing that class beyond your rigid definition without being OP'd, but you're either unmoved by or have simply ignored most of the evidence we've presented. And I have not been swayed by your arguments either so we are at an impasse.

So I think you and I are done here. But I will say this (and OutlawDr this is not directed specifically at you): Conversations like this one illustrate beautifully why I despise class systems so much. People get these ideas in their heads about what each class should or should not be able to do, and they put each class into these tight little boxes at the expense of variety and flexibility in gameplay. But with PS2's customization, no one class will be limited to just one role. Likewise, no one role will be the exclusive territory of any particular class.

And of course, Beta hasn't even started yet, and hardly any of us at PSU have even played the game yet. Once Beta starts everything is up for grabs, so once we all get our hands dirty and experience the weapons and classes first hand, we can stop playing theoryside and back up our arguments with actual PS2 game experience...

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by OutlawDr

This doesn't paint the picture of a high RoF, low accuracy weapon we associate with the LMG.

In what universe are LMGs low accuracy? They are guns with a heavy barrel, probably with the ability to quickly swap barrels, and possibly with the ability to use ammo belts, but sometimes they just have big drum mags.

They are not inaccurate unless you're trying to run around with them. This is in fact how it is in most games, too.

[OutlawDr]

I agree that nothing can be settled outside of beta. We can only plant ideas for further discussion.

Likewise, no one role will be the exclusive territory of any particular class.

I know you don't like the class based system, but there are going to be exclusive roles and there will be roles excluded from certain classes. Its going to happen. Thats the nature of the beast. Healing and reviving will stay exclusive with combat medic. Sniper rifles with infiltrators. ect..

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

In what universe are LMGs low accuracy? They are guns with a heavy barrel, probably with the ability to quickly swap barrels, and possibly with the ability to use ammo belts, but sometimes they just have big drum mags.

They are not inaccurate unless you're trying to run around with them. This is in fact how it is in most games, too.

Yes, I know real world LMGs are more accurate than how they are represented in most games.

[willaguy]

If you look at the stats it has a higher RoF and the firing modes say automatic, so it's either the stats that are wrong or the description.

[CutterJohn]

Originally Posted by OutlawDr

Yes, I know real world LMGs are more accurate than how they are represented in most games.

Actually, most games represent them well. They are bad for run and gun, with a huge cof, and deadly when motionless and sighted.

On the other hand, games have gotten shotguns and rocket launchers wrong from day one.

I know you don't like the class based system, but there are going to be exclusive roles and there will be roles excluded from certain classes. Its going to happen. Thats the nature of the beast. Healing and reviving will stay exclusive with combat medic. Sniper rifles with infiltrators. ect..

Somewhat. Major class abilities, yes. MAXs can't cloak. But As far as weapons go, the classes are pretty diverse. Yes, only infils get sniper rifles, but the other rifles will be able to be made effective at long range as well, you just won't be getting one hit headshots. Infils may be the best, but that doesn't mean that the other classes will be an ignorable threat at range.

Hopefully MAXs will have some long range weapon variants as well, so they aren't useless outside the base. It would be ridiculous if they ignored the MAXs obvious strength as a stable firing platform.

[Knightwyvern]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Actually, most games represent them well. They are bad for run and gun, with a huge cof, and deadly when motionless and sighted.

On the other hand, games have gotten shotguns and rocket launchers wrong from day one.




Somewhat. Major class abilities, yes. MAXs can't cloak. But As far as weapons go, the classes are pretty diverse. Yes, only infils get sniper rifles, but the other rifles will be able to be made effective at long range as well, you just won't be getting one hit headshots. Infils may be the best, but that doesn't mean that the other classes will be an ignorable threat at range.

Hopefully MAXs will have some long range weapon variants as well, so they aren't useless outside the base. It would be ridiculous if they ignored the MAXs obvious strength as a stable firing platform.

Agreed. Here's hoping LMG in PS2 will end up being what they really should be. I wouldn't mind for some semi-accurate shotgun mechanics too Not much hope of realistic rocket/missile launchers though, oh well.

MAX would make for a cool long range platform, but it might overlap a little too much with the Engi turrets; though, I like those better as they are more team oriented it seems to me. Hopefully though a Scattercannon on an NC MAX will have a slug ammo option, or there will be a more long range weapon option available for when you aren't in close quarters.

[OutlawDr]

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

Somewhat. Major class abilities, yes. MAXs can't cloak. But As far as weapons go, the classes are pretty diverse. Yes, only infils get sniper rifles, but the other rifles will be able to be made effective at long range as well, you just won't be getting one hit headshots. Infils may be the best, but that doesn't mean that the other classes will be an ignorable threat at range.

I don't know about that. Im sure there will be several fully universal weapons such as pistols, basic grenades C4.... But for most weapons I wouldn't be too surprised if a class or two are excluded. Shotguns on infiltrators is already debated. We just saw that recent uproar about the possibility of engineers getting assault rifles (a weapon that was seen by many as sole domain of the medic). I don't think HA will get shotguns, carbines or assault rifles..mostly because they don't really need them...again a class consideration. And there are weapons like the sniper rifle, LMG, class grenades that are exclusive to one class. We'll see soon I guess.