Devs: Engineers Should carry Ammo packs..not LA's.

[Stew]

Originally Posted by PoisonTaco

Give the ammo pack to heavy assault and make them cost resources. If ammo packs have a cost they will only be used if absolutely needed. It gives the HA something to bring for the team, and the resource cost makes it so you can't just throw it around and waste it.

Bad idea since in everygames where you have randoms people you trow a amo pack to help them out and they run away from it so yeah and also the LA must keep the amo because its the more reliable class who can jump over structure and containers etc.. to reach the people who need amo actually HA will mostly spend his amo to resuply himself due to his low mobility

And no way for the ENG OP idea !

[MrKWalmsley]

Originally Posted by Stew

actually HA will mostly spend his amo to resuply himself due to his low mobility

You can come up with the selfishness excuse for practically every class, and I do not see why you are using it since it applies to LA's to.

Engineers would just use ammo packs to resupply themselves because they have only a limited number of explosives, and their non-dedicated firearm is not as good as others, so they'd need more ammo to accomplish the same task.

Infiltrators would just use ammo packs to resupply themselves so they stay in one place for hours popping off shots constantly without having to move to a base to resupply.

Medics would use ammo packs to resupply themselves as as with the engineer, their primary weapon is not a dedicated killing platform, so it will require more ammo to perform the same as say a HA.

Max's shouldn't have ammo packs because they will supply themselves for the same reasons as a HA.

So that criticism is null since it can be applied to every class, and even if not every class, it sure as hell applies to the LA.

[Kalbuth]

I've not read the whole thread, sry, maybe this has been said before : what if ammo packs are still given to LA, but can only be deployed on the ground, or LA needs a non-LA teammate nearby to deploy it? (sounds rather stupid as a restriction, but at least you're sure to avoid the lonewolf which is guaranteed to happen is LA has ammo pack unrestricted)

[RageMasterUK]

Originally Posted by mintyc

at E3 they mentioned that they mentioned that they would be and i quote "changing it up" as they dident like how ammo pack encoraged LA's lone wolfing about the place. if you want to hear it for yourself check out the TB sream vids on youtube.

I did hear that yes. I think that was a partial pander to the militant "NO LA AMMO DROP EVAR" group as the messageboards were hot about that subject at the time.

I just hope to high heaven the Devs dont doubt their original idea on this. The forum is mostly conjecture from people who have never played PS1 or PS2 commenting on videos of people who have only played PS2 for like 30 minutes. What the hell do we know, devs? For gods sake dont listen too hard to us. Go with your gut! Keep it in for beta and let us tell you when we're more informed.

I would be keen to know if they get many incidents of LA Lone-Wolf Ammobox-Camping in their internal office beta. People who have played it longer than 30 minutes have the real answer on this. Not the E3 showroom floor.

You said LA get about 300 rounds in their pool before opening up the ammo crate. I would be keen to see if the average Light Assault fires more or less than 300 rounds (10 magazines) in an average life, to see whether or not the Ammo Box has any effect whatsoever on their playstyle.

If it is found out that LA's fire through only 150 rounds (5 magazines) per average life than we can say conclusively that the Ammo Box has absolutely nothing to do with Light Assault Lone Wolfing, because they would very rarely need to drop the box for themselves.

The stat tracking feature will have interesting reveals in this regard. I think we will find that most LA's die way before they empty their primary ammo pool. Please chime in again MintyC if you disagree with this statement. We can talk about that.

as you said Form Follows Function and i belive that giveing the LA an ammo pack will ether lead to him becoming ditached from the front line and geting caught with his pants down or haveing to remain so close to a moveing front line to keep it surplyed that it comprises there ability to flank and disrupt the enemy. the LA with have a rather small window in witch to operate as it is without giveing them a task that will take them away from that window, paticularly when there are better suited classes that is alredy in the main group on the front line.

*Facepalm*
Again you want every Light Assault to play like you're going to play. Your previous "ammobox + LA = LoneWolf encouragement" argument is a much better argument than this, because ammo pack or no ammo pack the tactical play you want to see is UNAFFECTED BY AMMO PACKS. YOU CAN DO EVERYHING YOU JUST WROTE ABOUT WITHOUT DROPPING YOUR PACK. YOU DONT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING YOU DONT WANT TO IN THIS GAME. If you're not keen on handing out ammo then someone else is going to have to, regardless of whether they have to pick LA to do this. Its obvious you're not too keen on having to hand out ammo.

If you were to open your mind to imagine a player wants to SPECIFICALLY re-arm their friendlies. Which class do you think will be most fulfilling to play out this role in? Which class would be most useful in this regard? Light Assault every frikkin time. Its almost tailor made for the role of delivering ammo.

Its a bad reason to move ammo packs out of the whole class because you feel everyone should play Light Assault in a manner just like you do. You are pigeonholing everyone else wanting to play Light Assault class with this statement, because they want to play differently than you.

Its like engineers arguing they should take the repair tool off the class because they just want to go around placing deployables and doing nothing else. Doesnt mean other players might want to do the repairing. We should cater for both if one does not affect the other.

The Function:
Making sure ammo reaches all who need it.
The Form:
Class MOST CAPABLE TO REACH THOSE WHO NEED IT.

What happens when HA get ammo packs.
Sniper "I bailed on this sniper perch and its a great view. Running low on ammo."
HA "Oh well shame I cant get up there to you."
Sniper "Grab a mossie and bail over me.
HA "Screw that, costs resources. You will have to come down."
Sniper: fu...

Infil: "Im PWNING just the other side of that base-wall. Gief me ammo! Please!"
HA: "Screw that I aint takin the long way round. You will have to come back."
Infil: fu...

HA1: "Doin pretty well surviving here at point C, got any ammo packs left?"
HA2: "Nah the MAXs have chewed through the lot but I will go fetch. Wheres the closest equip terminal?"
MAX: "Other side of that ravine."
HA1: fu...
HA2: fu...
MAX:fu...

Squadleader: "Need ammo up top of the tower at point A!!!"
HA: "I didnt pimp this LMG so I'd have to run up and down stairs for you guys, screw that!"
Rest of Squad: fu...

LA:.... what? Dont look at me! I just flank and stuff.



-RageMasterUK

[Kalbuth]

@RageMasterUK : at the very moment we were seeing the LA and purfectStorm made her comment on "working on it", didn't they also stated the guy they were watching was actually a dev or smtg? He was definitely better than the usual player screened at E3.

Awnyway, I understand perfectly your point, sounds very valid, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that ammo pack + health/shield regen (which is apparently still to be confirmed for health regen) + ability to reach hidden points == perfect lonewolf dream, and this playstyle will become heavily used, even if there exist other ways to play the class. When people will find out a way to survive longer on their own, they'll use it.
There are many "if" in this scenario, which means we better wait for beta at this point.

[StumpyTheOzzie]

Make a new class.

[Top Sgt]

Originally Posted by StumpyTheOzzie

Make a new class.

lol like the one matrix movie.. Where the ammo kids just ran out the doors pushing ammo carts up to the max's.. that's all they did run around bringing ammo ha ha

[mintyc]

@RageMasterUK

i am not trying to pigeon-hole anyone, what i am trying to do is make a point.

and that point is that the devs appear to be folowing a philosophy of each class haveing its own set of abilitys and equipment with very little replication or crossover in other clases. as a result of this i would not expect the ammo pack to be given to more than one class. i just belive that it would be better to give that to class that spends most of its time wher the ammo packs will have the greatest effect.

allow me to explain my thinking on how the Light Assault will operate combat wise, based on current observed and stated information.

The Facts

1. the LA has a jump pack
2. the LA has a carbine (talk of shotguns also being available)
3. the LA has low armour
4. the LA has speciality grenades
5. the LA has normal granades
6. the LA can reach places no other class can without a vehicle
7. the LA has more movement paths open to it than any other class

The Analysys Of The Facts

1. weapons

granades, carbines and shotguns are all most effective at short to medium range so in order to fight efectivly the LA will need to close the distance to the enamy.

the speciality granades comprise of smoke, flash and C4. while the c4 is for seting traps and dealing with vehicles up close, the smoke and flash are disruption granades. the smoke grenades are for breaking line of sight and force your enemy to ether reposition to the sides of the smoke, retreat backwards or risk being swamped in close combat. the flash on the other hand is all about temporarily disableing your enemy so you can gain an advantage, close procsimity to the grenade is vital for maximum effect.

2. armour

with low armour it is unwise for you to spend significant ammounts of time standing in the line of fire. now since you need line of sight to attack your enamy with your primary weapons that means that you shouldent stand wher the enamy is placeing most of its fire i.e. the frontline. also once you do draw large ammounts of enemy fire you wont last to long so shorter engagements in rapid succession will beneeded to keep the presure on.

3. jumppack

this is less about moveing faster than allowing you to treverse terain faster and move in ways that no other class can. meaning that you can move to wher others canot reach rapidly allowing you to operate without haveing to worry about your flanks for a short window. the jump pack also alows you to rapidly disengage in ways that allow you time to brake line of sight.

the only other class that can negate this is another LA meaning that situational awearness and disengageing befor you draw to much atention will be key to survival.

The Conclusions

the LA's weapons dictate that ther efective range will be medium to short range, however the LA's armour dictates that they canot take sustaned fire and the enemys fire will always be heavyest towards the largest consentration of oposing forces in order to surpress them.

this combines to mean that the LA will need to be at medium to close range attaking from a direction other than that of the front line. thanks to the jump pack the LA can taverse terrain rapidly to find a good flanking position that the enemy is current not paying atention too. theese needs for the enemy to not be paying attention to the area and the need for proximity mean that it is highly unlikely that the chosen location will not have any frindly troops present at all and be significantly out of the line of sight that the LA can position properly befor drawing atention.

this need to operate away from frindly lines to be most efective in flanking and disrupting the enemys line means that the LA's primary offensive operational area involves spending significant time away from frindly lines.

giveing the LA what will likly be the only rapidly deployable ammo source means that the LA will have now have more than one operational areas that requiare significant time to move safely between. the front line will sometimes be stable but more often than not they will be in fairly rapid flux. meaning that the LA will end up ether haveing fight from the front line wher ther wepons and low armour make them far less effective or away from the main group wher an ammo pack would not do the team they are with any good.

the LA will be unable to swap between the two operational areas rapidly as to move from attaking the flank to friendly front lines the LA will have to disengage from the enemy safely, then avoid any one that is persuing them followed by haveing to circle round back to friendly lines as they cant cut accros no mans land without the risk of being killed when the enemy front lines see a LA bounceing around in front of them.

end concusion.

you can cut it whatever way you like it it is part of the LA's role to spend a fair old ammount of time away from the front line and giveing them the ammo caddy role on top of that will cut down significantly the amount of time they will spend in efective attacking positions. this is why i think the ammo pack should be given to a class that spends most of its time attacking or surporting from the main front line.

you said that it is a bad reason to move ammo packs based on how i think others should play the class, well considering the LA's weapons, armour and manuvrability. i would be interested to hear how you think the LA should play other than as a flanker/disruptor that spends as little time as posible in the massed fire on the front line, which is exactly wher the ammo packs are needed the most.


What happens when LA get ammo packs.

(good snipers have 2 ranges)

(stupidly long range)
Sniper "I bailed on this sniper perch and its a great view. Running low on ammo."
LA "Ok let me run the 3 miles to you"
enemy air cav "oh look an LA out in the open, on his own, next to that awsome sniper perch"
Sniper + LA: fu...*BOOM*
(if i have a nice sniper perch i dont want an LA and his shiny jets anywher near me)

(just behind the front line range)
Sniper "I bailed on this sniper perch and its a great view. Running low on ammo."
LA "you have an ammopack right in front of you lazy sod"
Sniper: "oh yeah"

Infil "Im PWNING just the other side of that base-wall. Gief me ammo! Please!"
LA "Ok let me jump accros this enemy held base to get to you"
enemy trooper 1 "why is he doing that?"
enemy trooper 2 *rapid gunfire* "he is not doing it anymore"
(being a LA trooper wont realy make you faster it just lets you get over taller things)

HA1 "Doin pretty well surviving here at point C, got any ammo packs left?"
LA "ok i died trying to get in to that building that is under large amounts of enemy fire, whers the nearest spawnpoint"
MAX "Other side of that ravine."
LA "Sweet i can just jump back to you"
HA1 "nevermind and enginer who was alredy with the front line has deployed his Mobile Armament Supply Terminal as we will be staying put for a while to defend this point"
LA "so i got myselft killed for nothing?"
MAX "well i found it funny, that count as somthing?"
LA "fu..."

Squadleader "Need ammo up top of the tower at point A!!!"
LA "hear you go"
Rest of Squad "woohoo"
Squadleader "ok now dont even think about moveing away or attaking and geting your sellf killed else i will have a MAX sit on you, we are dead if we run out of ammo"
MAX *grins*
LA "fu..."

HA + CM "... what dont look at us! all we do is stay on the front line and stuff"

[Malorn]

If you stay with your squad anyone can give ammo effectively.

I still like the MAX for ammo giving. Makes the most sense to me.

[Toppopia]

Hmm, i have actually wondered how useful flanking as an LA would be, do bases have rafter type places or air ducty areas? (Not really air ducts, but places that only a LH would get to and can flank from a high elevated position an can only really be killed by rocket spam or being shot while poking over the edge?

[RageMasterUK]

Your "Lone-Wolfing" argument is much stronger than the "LA is a flanking class" argument.

1. It really doesnt matter what combat strategies LA are most suited to, everyone gets weapons, and we're talking about support here. The only thing that matters is that LA is the most agile and maneuverable class.

2. This lends itself to BOTH attack strategies, AND logistics.

3. Just because all you want to do is forward position flanking maneuvers doesnt mean every single LA will want to the same thing as you. Some players will want to stick within range of their squad and provide ammo, or covering fire from elevated positions, or get on mana turrets, or spot enemies. WE DONT ALL HAVE TO PLAY LIKE YOU SUGGEST. WE MIGHT HAVE OUR OWN IDEAS ON HOW TO PLAY LIGHT ASSAULT. Just because you are playing the class that can drop ammo doesnt mean you have to do it. You remain unaffected in your LA flanking role...
...however...
Removing the ammo pack from LA will affect everyone else who wants to play close to their squad, who would really appreciate the ability to re-arm hard-to-reach friendlies.

4. Ammo Packs drop instantly and do not need to be babysat like you seem to think. LA's can link up and do their ammo re-supplying with VERY LITTLE TIME OUT OF THEIR BUSY FLANKING SCHEDULE.
Let me repeat that for the hard-of-reading. YOU ARE NOT WELDED TO THE POSITION YOU DROP YOUR AMMO IN. (Geez its like people think you have to stay there and wind the handle on the damn thing)

5. The Light assault does not have to be "On Location" for more than a split second to provide the support feature. LA can flash into a friendly location to provide ammo BEFORE, DURING, OR AFTER he starts his combat maneuvers elsewhere. His ammo box can be providing ammo in one location, while he is flank-maneuvering 300 meters away AT THE SAME TIME.

6. A Light Assault is HIGHLY LIKELY to run past friendlies needing ammo between their last respawn point and their MintyC endorsed forward firing position.

7. As you mentioned CE already gets an ammo vending point that can be placed near the bulk of a squad. So why bother having a class equally as immobile as CE (i.e non LA classes) dropping ammo packs where the vending machine is? Why not give it to the LA who can reach other places the CE cannot?

And lastly I see you fixed my hypothetical conversations up without much thought. Obviously this is just a bit o fun but hey...

The point of my orignal conversation examples where LA provides the ammo service where no other class could.
And a bit of fun. Your edits do not support your argument against LA having the ammo.

Convo1: Sniper runs out of ammo, his perch becomes useless (then read convo2). No LA, no perch rearm EVER = Fail.
Convo2: Sniper drops down and has to repurchase Mozzie to reach perch with ammo again = Fail
Convo3 & 4: Introducing the super-lethal base or the Engineer in this context MAKES THE AMMO PACK REDUNDANT REGARDLESS OF WHAT CLASS ITS ON. You heaped no criticism on LA with either of these. What happens when the vending machine gets destroyed or the engineer logs off? Who will cross your ravine now? = Fail.
Convo 5: Light Assault DOES NOT HAVE TO STAY ON POINT. Squadleader in question is an idiot = Fail.

-RageMasterUK