The Impending Magrider Nerf.

[DarkSentry]

Originally Posted by Higby

Someone asked me what the VS got as an empire advantage, that tweet was an answer to that question - not a declaration of impending nerfs.

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

We are considering some MBT changes though, including potentially

Removing or reducing magrider front armor since Magriders always have their front facing the things they're fighting, so the front armor bonus scales a bit better for them compared to the other two tanks.

Increasing the muzzle velocity for Vanguard cannons, this would help them be more effective at standoff ranges vs the other tanks, especially the Magrider, and it fits with the NC MO.

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

What the tanks need most is some quality of life changes.

Going over terrain shouldn't move the position of the gun unless it would exceed its maximum range of lowest or highest. This means as you roll over a little bump, you gun shouldn't move from where you have it aimed. However, if you went up a cliff and you gun was facing down, it would stay facing down, but since it is exceeding its lowest threshold it is forced to move up. As you go over the hill, and your front end starts to lower, the gun stays at its position until it exceeds the top threshold and is forced down.

This minor change will allow for combat while moving, since right now, tanks basically fight at a stand still long range artillery contest. It is just too hard to aim and account for bumps in the terrain while your target faces you with its front armor and gets much more accurate shots off on you. If you are trying to maneuver while fighting (doesn't apply to mag), you will hit bumps and you will have a much harder time hitting a stationary target while moving.

This one change should bring the other tanks inline with the magrider and no nerfs/buffs should be necessary imo.

The other change I would suggest is to increase the refire time on the prowler. Since the vanguard and the magrider have single shot damage with a long reload time, they do not have to account for recoil. They fire their shot and they are not affected by recoil at all. The prowler however has to fire its 2nd shot under the effects of recoil OR suffer a DPS loss. So the prower has a recoil penalty while the vanguard and magrider do not.

I suggest to change the refire time on the prowler so that it has a long enough delay inbetween shots to not be affected by recoil like the other MBTs. Then something would have to be done to either lower its reload timer or separate its cannons so they reload independently to keep its dps on par with the other MBTs.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Cronoc

Has the switch to the pilot-gunner paradigm ruined that so much, or were the other faction's tanks better in some way than in PS2?

Pretty much this...

I mean, let's face it, unlike other tanks (where aim and movement are controlled separately) or aircraft (which mostly need to move towards the direction they are aiming), the Mag is basically a SUPER Heavy Assault who trades jumping and shields for a speed booster and a 30-some shot CANNON.

Originally Posted by Figment

It's not hard to understand that if you can strafe with a stable weaponsplatform while aiming, you will get hit less and hit more yourself than your opponents who cannot and still cannot afford to turn their sides and use their turret advantage because they'll take more damage doing that. And since Mags will die less due to the above, they will live longer and get more kills individually as well.

Indeed...

Originally Posted by Figment

Had they designed driver/gunners like in PS1 and copied the balance, this would never have been the case btw.

This right here is the entire reason for not only the Mag being broken, but also for the unbalance of Armor in general ground combat.

I mean, one-man MBTs are hard enough for Infantry to deal with as is, but then you throw in a super hover-tank that can slide behind cover even faster then you can as an Heavy Assault AND can use splash damage to it's advantage while you're stuck whiffing rockets?

Of course, we can't just switch so that drivers have Secondary guns and NEED gunners for their cannons, because what would we EVER do for the Magriders?

Originally Posted by Assist

This keeps being repeated and it's really making me wonder wtf some of you guys do. You do realize that your main gun and your vehicle movement are independant unlike the Magrider?
You want to know how to avoid long distance shots from a Magrider? You move the same way your infantry character would. Point your tracks perpendicular to the Magrider and push the W and S button. I really don't get why this keeps being brought up like Vanguards/Prowlers are at some huge disadvantage at long range.

Ummm, maybe it's because we have to get our hulls perpendicular to the Magrider in the first place?

Unless you advance in an acute zig-zag pattern, you are more then likely going to come up on an enemy Mag hull forward, meaning an extra four or five seconds to reorient.

Sure, a really skilled tanker would break to one side or the other to get perpendicular faster by using his forward momentum, but even then he's still limited to mostly the one dimension of back and forth movement.

In the end, the Roomba tank can still circle strafe (which not only allows it to side-step shots but also change the trajectory needed to hit it) like a BAHSS, while it's tracked brethren are stuck jaunting side to side like a tin duck in a shooting gallery.

Originally Posted by ChipMHazard

Prowling? Really? This isn't Monty Python and sadly Prowlers can't pounce on its foes like the killer cars.

Forget "Lock-down," this is the special ability our tanks really need, hydraulic jump-jacks that LAUNCH THEM INTO THE AIR!

Originally Posted by ShadetheDruid

The poor Lightning always gets left out.

I'd actually argue that the Lightning suffers more from the lack of stabilisation, since speed and mobility plus lack of armour means Lightnings need to be constantly on the move to survive.

Hell the Lightning gets shafted simply due to the fact that it's SUPPOSE to be THE one-man tank, but then they went and made EVERY tank solo operable...

[Sian]

Originally Posted by Higby

Prowlers are only performing very, very slightly below magriders in general right now, so we think they're probably alright, but if anything they might get a minor damage increase to AP and HEAT rounds.

We're still playing with these changes internally, so it's not by any means a done deal.

If I could do any one thing to the Prowler, it would be to treat each cannon as a separate weapon as far as reloads go. You fire one cannon, it automatically goes to reload, instead of waiting until both cannons are empty. This really fits with the sustained fire theme of the TR.

[grimey]

I did start a post about having the firing of the cannons seperately like a max unit so you could shoot both at the same time but if they don't allow that seperately reloading cannons would be the next best thing.

[AnamNantom]

Originally Posted by almalino

Let see the situation Magraider vs Vanguard without upgrades head to head firing to each other at the same time.

Magraider strafe to the side and avoid being hit.
Vanguard cannot do that and must receive the hit in it's front

Result is that Vanaguard is damaged and Magrider is not. Profit For Magraider.

Yet strafing while shooting is not the easiest thing in the world. Any increase or decline on a hill, bumping objects (other magriders)... all these will take knock our aim off. Sure, we can go over hills and boost and strafe to get out of the way of your gunfire, but it doesn't always work, and it's a bit more difficult to go from defensive actions to offensive actions, based on what I said above.

[Assist]

Originally Posted by Higby

IF we change the Magrider it wouldn't be any sort of change to it's maneuverability at all, that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

Originally Posted by twitterHigby

Magrider: Removed hover length bonus from performance items, reduced muzzle velocity for HRB (300->250).

You my friend, are full of shit. Your idea of 'balanced' tanks means making the Magrider irrelevant compared to the other two tanks. 25% Prowler HEAT damage increase, AND velocity increase? Same with the Vanguard? Meanwhile nerf the Saron ? Come on man, this screams bias.

You need a team to do balance passes, this is a joke.

/nothappy.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Assist

You my friend, are full of shit. Your idea of 'balanced' tanks means making the Magrider irrelevant compared to the other two tanks. 25% Prowler HEAT damage increase, AND velocity increase? Same with the Vanguard? Meanwhile nerf the Saron ? Come on man, this screams bias.

You need a team to do balance passes, this is a joke.

/nothappy.

Yes, whine that the Roomba can no longer fly over man-high obstacles and it's second cannon has it's speed dropped by 50, it's like music to our ears!

[Assist]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Yes, whine that the Roomba can no longer fly over man-high obstacles and it's second cannon has it's speed dropped by 50, it's like music to our ears!

It's a HOVER tank. It's supposed to HOVER over obstacles.

The Saron nerf isn't an impact by itself. It is when the other two tanks are getting buffed to 'balance' out the tanks. That's not balance, that's buffing two, nerfing one, when the one was already the worst tank in any 1v1 MBT situation. Explain to me WHY the AP would be buffed for the Vanguard and Prowler and NOT for the Magrider?

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Assist

It's a HOVER tank. It's supposed to HOVER over obstacles.

The Saron nerf isn't an impact by itself. It is when the other two tanks are getting buffed to 'balance' out the tanks. That's not balance, that's buffing two, nerfing one, when the one was already the worst tank in any 1v1 MBT situation. Explain to me WHY the AP would be buffed for the Vanguard and Prowler and NOT for the Magrider?

Dude, first off, the Vulcan was "adjusted" as well, it now does even damage over it's entire range instead of being a close up murder machine, so it means the NC were the only ones coming out of this with a straight buff.

Second, you must SUCK as using your Roomba if you think it is the worst MBT in the game...
The Vanguard only got HEAT and AP velocity buffs, while the Prowler, THE ACTUAL WORST MAIN BATTLE TANK IN THE GAME, got HEAT and AP damage buffs and a MUCH needed buff to it's Faction special ability.

If you want to run a flying tank so damn bad, maybe you should invest in a Liberator?

[Assist]

Originally Posted by Whiteagle

Dude, first off, the Vulcan was "adjusted" as well, it now does even damage over it's entire range instead of being a close up murder machine, so it means the NC were the only ones coming out of this with a straight buff.

Second, you must SUCK as using your Roomba if you think it is the worst MBT in the game...
The Vanguard only got HEAT and AP velocity buffs, while the Prowler, THE ACTUAL WORST MAIN BATTLE TANK IN THE GAME, got HEAT and AP damage buffs and a MUCH needed buff to it's Faction special ability.

If you want to run a flying tank so damn bad, maybe you should invest in a Liberator?

I'm without a doubt the worst Magrider driver in the game, I hear it all the time. I also didn't say it was the worst MBT in the game, I said in 1v1 MBT situations it is the worst. The Prowler can run circles around a Magrider and kill it since the Magrider cannot turn that fast and the Vanguard was already the best 1v1 tank in the game. So explain to me again why the AP would be buffed on all but the Magrider?

Apparently you're right about the last part. If I want to play the game at all I have to be in a Liberator, they're the best at every single aspect of the game right now. But who cares about balancing them, right?

edit: Also if you think that Vulcan change was a nerf you've probably never used it. I'll trade my Saron for your Vulcan any day.

[Whiteagle]

Originally Posted by Assist

I'm without a doubt the worst Magrider driver in the game, I hear it all the time. I also didn't say it was the worst MBT in the game, I said in 1v1 MBT situations it is the worst. The Prowler can run circles around a Magrider and kill it since the Magrider cannot turn that fast and the Vanguard was already the best 1v1 tank in the game. So explain to me again why the AP would be buffed on all but the Magrider?

Uh... because the AP turret on the Prowler was useless and the Vanguard's slow ass shells couldn't hit something that can easily strafe to the side?

Originally Posted by Assist

edit: Also if you think that Vulcan change was a nerf you've probably never used it. I'll trade my Saron for your Vulcan any day.

I didn't say the Vulcan was nerfed, but SURE, I'll take the secondary AP Sniper Rifle over the AP Chaingun ANY day!

[maradine]

Originally Posted by Assist

edit: Also if you think that Vulcan change was a nerf you've probably never used it. I'll trade my Saron for your Vulcan any day.

Dude, not a chance. Even nerfed, it's still the best anti-armor secondary in the game. You'd have to pay me actual dollars to pry it off the roof.

I'm not happy with it, but we got off light, mate. I actually think the hover reduction is a blessing. The ride height effect was making it increasingly difficult to find good hull-down positions.