Tank balance thread (because magrider)

[Knightwyvern]

Originally Posted by DjEclipse

Are you the rain man?

There are three empires, and if we had perfect balance, the Mag would win 33% of the time vs the other two. It was kind of meant to be tongue-in-cheek.

[Otleaz]

So this subject has been bugging me so I am going to bump this instead of making a new thread.

All of these people complaining about the fixed turret on the magrider have got me confused. I can't tell if I am misinterpreting something, or if is them.

The way I understand it, the Magrider IS the turret. The best way to imagine it is to picture that there is an invisible tank chassis below the Magrider, carrying it.

What is the difference? The Magrider goes the same speed in any direction, doesn't it?

[Littleman]

Originally Posted by Otleaz

What is the difference? The Magrider goes the same speed in any direction, doesn't it?

This we don't know, but in a way, it'd have to for the purpose of handing off main gun control to a dedicated gunner. Still, that concept isn't any concrete proof. "Wait for beta."

We do know tanks have their strongest armor up front, and just watching Higby's latest stream, even a prowler's front armor seems to shrug off a Vanguard's direct hit, where a direct hit to the back pretty much blew out its engine causing it to discharge multiple plumes of smoke. The prowler is also supposed to have the weakest armor, so it can take a direct hit, from a Vanguard, to it's back side.

The strengths of the Magrider appear to be ease of use (essentially controls like a foot soldier) and keeping the armor facing the direction of the enemy the pilot is fighting. It sounds like a double edged sword - target one enemy only to expose the back to another - but the Magrider has many more movement options available to them. With a Vanguard or Prowler, you can pretty much predict which direction they'll be moving in once you determine their facing, and I doubt they could turn the chassis nearly as fast as a Magrider can.

Water hovering is something of a gimmick, even in PS1, but for the tech at the time was one of the only real advantages outside of the direct fire turret. The driver's pea shooter, while a unique feature at the time, wasn't worth sacrificing mobility to use.

[JesNC]

There's a minor difference between the Mag and the other MBTs that I've spotted (apart from the turret ofc):

The Vanguard and the Prowler have a co-axial MG, which can apparently be fired simultaneusly to the main gun. There's very little 1st person Magrider gameplay in the videos, but I've been through them a few times and I haven't seen anything like that on the Mag.

Now I'm just wondering if it gets something similar or if the main gun makes up for it in AI/AA effectiveness and/or DPM. Anyone got any more insight into this?

[TAA]

There is no need to worry about this. Balancing is not going to be done on a 1v1 basis but across all of the factions. It works something like this:

• Get a full server of people fighting for a few weeks.
• Figure out which side seems to be dominating most battles.
• Run stats on the kills from those battles and figure out if any weapons are being favored by the players, what weapons are responsible for the biggest number of kills, and what it is that those weapons are killing so much of.
• Apply slight changes in the characteristics of the weapons/vehicles on the winning or losing faction to see if that changes the performance of that faction in subsequent engagements.
• Run more stats.

Even if magriders have huge shortcomings in certain situations that is not a problem. For example, maybe they will always lose against another tank in areas where they cant maneuver, but will hold their own in more open ground. That just means each faction will have to embrace The Art of War and attempt to control the terrain of engagements to match their strengths.

Alternatively maybe the Magriders will be great against infantry and suck against many other tanks, but the VS Scythes will dominate the skies to make up for it. Maybe their HA teams will be more powerful than the other factions and that would provide the balance.

I actually wish combat was even more asymmetrical than it is now. Refer to ET:QW for an excellent example of balanced asymmetrical warfare.

[MCYRook]

You guys aren't seriously discussing balance of specific equipment based on pre-Beta footage, are you? With a poll even?

Oh, you are. Well... carry on.

[Kran De Loy]

Wait, where was it stated that the Prowler had the weakest overall armor? I thought it was the Mag, but the Mag has the bonus of being able to always face front rather than having to expose it's rear/sides to able to maneuver around like the Vanny or the Prowler.

Not including weapons (the weapons on the tanks are perfectly balanced imo). I figure that for balance reasons the Mag wont be able to strafe or reverse at top speed. I only hope they get better traction for maneuvering than they did in PS1.

Think of the Mag more like a tank that can turn it's forward armor to face any direction quickly while still keeping momentum in whichever direction it wants to be moving rather than thinking about it as a floating top half of a normal tank.

That means that the Mag trades Heavy Armoring and Top Spee.d/Acceleratio.n for this style of maneuvering. However in addition to those two trade offs it also has a fixed forward cannon so the Mag can ONLY fire at what it's facing.

[Shadowrath]

People can't really judge on the PS2 tanks however I personally think the Vanguard is the weakest.

[Azren]

Originally Posted by Kran De Loy

I thought it was the Mag, but the Mag has the bonus of being able to always face front rather than having to expose it's rear/sides to able to maneuver around like the Vanny or the Prowler.

What is this BS I keep reading again and again? Since when is it a bonus to be forced in one position if you want to hit something? Also, since when can't the other tanks turn to enjoy the same "bonus"?

[Bruttal]

oddly i dont remember casting a vote here yet it shows that i have =/

EDIT: NM it was just closed

[ringring]

Originally Posted by Synapse

News to me, I remember the TR being middle in terms of armor.

.... blargh.... just realised this is a necro thread..

[Kran De Loy]

Originally Posted by Azren

What is this BS I keep reading again and again? Since when is it a bonus to be forced in one position if you want to hit something? Also, since when can't the other tanks turn to enjoy the same "bonus"?

You didn't really read what you quoted, did you? Or at least didn't understand it.

Third section of the same post
"Think of the Mag more like a tank that can turn it's forward armor to face any direction quickly while still keeping momentum in whichever direction it wants to be moving rather than thinking about it as a floating top half of a normal tank."

Everyone else has to stop to make the same sharp turn that a Mag can. Sure the other tanks can turn while still moving but they can't make that same sharp about-face that a mag can all the while the mag can keep moving in whichever direction it wants to.

My two biggest problems is first with traction and second with the fixed mounted gun.

Moving like a bar of soap in a hockey rink does not equal maneuverability. Mag should have enough traction to chance directions quickly enough to keep itself competitive with the other MBTs.

As much as I hate the fixed gun mount I can see that it's a balance for that ability to face whichever direction we want quickly while maintaining that high maneuverability. However I believe that the Mag should have just as much side armoring as the Prowler or that the Mag should have a top turret mount like any sane designer would have made.

[PredatorFour]

In PS 1 you can dodge shells in a mag with strafing and probably will be able to do it in PS 2. You just have to keep yer distance, obviously you cant do it within 10 m of a vanguard but like someone said earlier you just dont get up close to the other empires tanks in a mag as you are a sniper tank.

With the drivers using the main gun i think we will see similiar gameplay traits to Dust 415 where people sit in tanks all the time and cain infantry. In that game you have to use rescources like in PS 2. Maybe in large scale combat we will see loads of tanks whoring kills and not going for the objectives. Whether thats good or bad, im not going to decide

[NoDachi]

Well the mag probably has the best applied DPM with good ROF and being the most accurate.

[Bruttal]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

In PS 1 you can dodge shells in a mag with strafing and probably will be able to do it in PS 2. You just have to keep yer distance, obviously you cant do it within 10 m of a vanguard but like someone said earlier you just don't get up close to the other empires tanks in a mag as you are a sniper tank.

With the drivers using the main gun i think we will see similar game-play traits to Dust 415 where people sit in tanks all the time and cain infantry. In that game you have to use resources like in PS 2. Maybe in large scale combat we will see loads of tanks whoring kills and not going for the objectives. Whether that's good or bad, Im not going to decide

Well I have to say I don't think the new Magrider has the laser type cannon now, it lobs plasma shells so sniping doesn't work the same as it did in ps1. Also Dodging a shell that you cant see coming because of fixed view isn't even possible.