ESF pilots revolt!!!!

[Thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by maradine

I'm an ESF pilot. Revolt is the furthest thing from my mind if this gets to Live. Sorry.

Couldn't have said it better myself

People need to grow up and get used to lack of Reverse thrust and if they don't like it, then just leave the game, Elite pilots make up 1% of the player base, you won't be missed.

[Wahooo]

Originally Posted by snafus

Wouldn't have been an issue if they launched the game with it. I would not have preferred that mechanic being added but at least that would be the standard. But with them changing part of the flight mechanic in such a drastic way, one year into the games life, seems to be a bit much. Honestly I would really love to hear their motive for the proposed changes. I have a bad feeling this is an attempt at lowering skill ceiling but all they will do is make the game more bland and still difficult to grasp for new players.

I think it just boils down to they didn't know what people were capable of doing and had to tweak this to come in line with the original concept.

Not really that different from a lot of the changes to the game from AMS no deploy zones and base re-design to limit where AMS's deployed and shields and walls and basically forcing people away from doing things the devs didn't expect.

I disagree with making such a whole sale change to a major play style even though it doesn't really affect me. It would just seem it took them a while to figure out what exactly was making flying ESFs so different from their original vision.

Remember a loud outcry about something broken in PS1 was the jack of all trades best choice for all things Reaver needed changing.
Right now with ESFs there is 1 airframe choice that is so far above the others in overall benefit it becomes the only choice. I guess this is the first step in an answer to that.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

Couldn't have said it better myself

People need to grow up and get used to lack of Reverse thrust and if they don't like it, then just leave the game, Elite pilots make up 1% of the player base, you won't be missed.

Or you could L2P and not beg for the game to be brought down to your level.

[Lucidius]

This argument reminds me of the exploiting done in Gunz: The Dual being considered a legit playstyle or an exploit in engine mechanics and cheating.

Either way, i'm all for making esf's more approachable (they currently arn't) and having them behave more I'm more concerned with the TTK's of esf's with the new vulcans PAIRED WITH this change in overall mobillity of all esf's (spoilers: not a good mix)

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by Lucidius

This argument reminds me of the exploiting done in Gunz: The Dual being considered a legit playstyle or an exploit in engine mechanics and cheating.

Either way, i'm all for making esf's more approachable (they currently arn't) and having them behave more I'm more concerned with the TTK's of esf's with the new vulcans PAIRED WITH this change in overall mobillity of all esf's (spoilers: not a good mix)

dude, Gunz would be such a bad game if it was not for stuff like the double butterfly and slash shot.

My little brother still plays that game and watching duals of him vs a good player are quite entertaining.

[KesTro]

Originally Posted by SolLeks

dude, Gunz would be such a bad game if it was not for stuff like the double butterfly and slash shot.

My little brother still plays that game and watching duals of him vs a good player are quite entertaining.

#K-style Yolo.

In all seriousness though I'll have to see how this change plays out on live servers. Currently I'm of the mind that this will impact the air game positively. You'll have more people to shoot down and can't so easily 1v2 aircraft without using your environment yo your advantage.

It's not like you won't be able to out-fly people still you'll just have to be smart about t now instead of relying on a maneuver.

[Thunderhawk]

Originally Posted by snafus

Or you could L2P and not beg for the game to be brought down to your level.

I am able to do the ESF RTM, so "learning to play" isn't why I think this change is good, but go ahead and make assumptions about why people have differing opinions to your own.

"ESF pilots revolt" is a generalization that gives the impression we're all revolting, when you need to realize that the amount of people "revolting" and the amount that will quit over this are pretty damn small.

[PredatorFour]

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

I am able to do the ESF RTM, so "learning to play" isn't why I think this change is good, but go ahead and make assumptions about why people have differing opinions to your own.

"ESF pilots revolt" is a generalization that gives the impression we're all revolting, when you need to realize that the amount of people "revolting" and the amount that will quit over this are pretty damn small.

Add me to that same list. I can rtm but i find it incredibly noobish when dogfighting. It's just ridiculous when you see people flying off backwards in an engagement.

If you chase them down as they reverse, lead them and shoot them, they die. They lose all momentum and get stuck in the air. Just remember to keep twisting as you chase them down so they struggle to hit you and use your momentum to your advantage when they lose theirs.

But all that is irrelevent with these incoming changes and it's going to be alot more fun fighting multiple ESF's in the skies.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by KesTro

#K-style Yolo.

In all seriousness though I'll have to see how this change plays out on live servers. Currently I'm of the mind that this will impact the air game positively. You'll have more people to shoot down and can't so easily 1v2 aircraft without using your environment yo your advantage.

It's not like you won't be able to out-fly people still you'll just have to be smart about t now instead of relying on a maneuver.

Currently on live, When people try to run from me and even if they use the legs of the bio labs / parts of the tech plants to fly through and around, 99% of the time as long as there is no outside interference, there is no way they will EVER get away from me. Turning to run against a good pilot = death, and that is a hard and fast rule of todays air game that will carry over if the RM is nerfed.

If running = death, and not being able to turn on your opponent because the move has been so neutered it = death, then any time you get a good pilot on your tail, without outside interference and not banking on the chance that they will screw up, you are dead.

Some time kestro, we should go on the test server and fight each other, that will give you a good feel for how bad the air game will become. Just poke me in TS.


Also, I sucked at K style and always had a hard time with the wall slash shot (the one where you can do a wall jump, fire your weapon and do a wall jump again while never losing height)

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Add me to that same list. I can rtm but i find it incredibly noobish when dogfighting. It's just ridiculous when you see people flying off backwards in an engagement.

If you chase them down as they reverse, lead them and shoot them, they die. They lose all momentum and get stuck in the air. Just remember to keep twisting as you chase them down so they struggle to hit you and use your momentum to your advantage when they lose theirs.

But all that is irrelevent with these incoming changes and it's going to be alot more fun fighting multiple ESF's in the skies.

I just want to ask you, Have you ever shaken a good pilot off your tail or been shaken off yourself without using the RM? It can happen, but its extremely rare, and doing stuff like real barrel rolls only works on lesser pilots as your aircraft becomes very slow (and thus easy to keep up with) wile they can fly in a line (thus hard to lose) and shoot you as you pass certain points in the rolls.

[PredatorFour]

In short, yes i have but it has been using scenery to help. I always keep as low as possible to limit getting seen first. Obviously if your flying high expecting to do a RM as soon as an aircraft decides to shoot you down, your going to get seen easy.

If a good pilot sees you first and your on your own, you should die in my eyes. Good positioning of attack, with suprise, will make them turn into flames.

This change is likely to benefit big air fights between multiple ESF's and i'm looking forward to see if it really does.

I just wanna state though that i do have concerns with ESF play, mainly with the nose gun changes they brought in. News of OP weapons they're bringing in too sounds like its going to really suck. They might not stop until every class/ vehicle is easy to kill people whether your noob or ace.

[SolLeks]

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

In short, yes i have but it has been using scenery to help. I always keep as low as possible to limit getting seen first. Obviously if your flying high expecting to do a RM as soon as an aircraft decides to shoot you down, your going to get seen easy.

If a good pilot sees you first and your on your own, you should die in my eyes. Good positioning of attack, with suprise, will make them turn into flames.

This change is likely to benefit big air fights between multiple ESF's and i'm looking forward to see if it really does.

I just wanna state though that i do have concerns with ESF play, mainly with the nose gun changes they brought in. News of OP weapons they're bringing in too sounds like its going to really suck. They might not stop until every class/ vehicle is easy to kill people whether your noob or ace.

I see what you mean, but I don't think it will benefit multiple ESF fights. I know I have said this before (either here or elsewhere, idr) but you don't use the RM in large air fights as you will run into other aircraft. Large air fights right now are basicly all forward flight stuff with calling team mates to get people off your 6, or getting outside edge of the fight and pulling a RM which all depends on the size of the fight and how far out people are spaced. Also, If noobs can easily kill a vet, what fun would the game be? That means everyone can easily kill everyone and there is no challenge. sounds like a snore fest.

When I easily gun down a noob, I just view it as a bit of exp. When I die to an ace, I find it a very fun and hard battle. I would rather take hard fights over exp farming.

Also on the shaking of people, Like I said before, If I am on your tail, there is no way you(not referring to you pred, more of a general 'you') will ever shake me. I am quite versed in fitting my ESF through and around things, people try it all the time, then they burst into flames.

[maradine]

Originally Posted by SolLeks

Also, If noobs can easily kill a vet, what fun would the game be? That means everyone can easily kill everyone and there is no challenge. sounds like a snore fest.

This is my favorite quote, in all its forms.

Sounds like the literal definition of a challenge. What's more impressive - being on top of a leaderboard where 90% of your competition pool never has a chance against you (and you know it, snore), or being on top of a leaderboard where every single kill could have gone much worse?

Someone will still be on top of that leaderboard. Are you implying that, with this change, it will no longer be the figurative you? That, all of a sudden, your asserted superior skill will no longer provide you any kind of edge? That, the law of large numbers will elevate someone else, far less deserving, to the top? No. I assert that, if your as good as you think you are, you will still, in fact, be cleaning up. You'll just be working harder, and in a way you claim to enjoy less, and with more teamwork potentially necessary, for each kill.

So, as a rational actor, it's very understandable why you don't like this. I don't think anyone's faulting you for your opinion here. But you also need to understand that to the other guys in that pile, what you do looks like snoozing through a tower defense level - marking off worthless experience packets punctuated by the occasional interesting fight. Where's the challenge?

This isn't a Streetfighter tournament, where you fight to the top and anyone who complains about the system is labeled a scrub. This is a F2P MMO where the bottom 90% needs to be happy and spending money for the game to survive. If I was SOE, sitting on the button, knowing that what whatever I do might push the "aces" into session-based games with higher skillcaps, I'd find that very unfortunate. But I'd still push the button.

Unless, of course, there's a solution that, magically, everyone likes. For a problem that, admittedly, we're guessing at the definition of.

I dunno man, I just work here.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by Thunderhawk

I am able to do the ESF RTM, so "learning to play" isn't why I think this change is good, but go ahead and make assumptions about why people have differing opinions to your own.

"ESF pilots revolt" is a generalization that gives the impression we're all revolting, when you need to realize that the amount of people "revolting" and the amount that will quit over this are pretty damn small.

A large enough portion of the aviation community raised concerns to make the devs back peddle and say they will not be adding these features into live. I honestly haven't seen one ACE support this change yet. As it seems only the flight sim lovers or bad pilots hate the reverse maneuver, or vertical thrust in its current form. There are many games that fill the cookie cutter flight mechanics that you seem to desire. How about you fly in those rather then trying to take away a unique system here.

[Sledgecrushr]

The slower ESFs will be totally fucked if this rule comes into effect. For those airplanes that can not run being unable to turn is a death sentence.

[snafus]

Originally Posted by maradine

This is my favorite quote, in all its forms.

Sounds like the literal definition of a challenge. What's more impressive - being on top of a leaderboard where 90% of your competition pool never has a chance against you (and you know it, snore), or being on top of a leaderboard where every single kill could have gone much worse?

Someone will still be on top of that leaderboard. Are you implying that, with this change, it will no longer be the figurative you? That, all of a sudden, your asserted superior skill will no longer provide you any kind of edge? That, the law of large numbers will elevate someone else, far less deserving, to the top? No. I assert that, if your as good as you think you are, you will still, in fact, be cleaning up. You'll just be working harder, and in a way you claim to enjoy less, and with more teamwork potentially necessary, for each kill.

So, as a rational actor, it's very understandable why you don't like this. I don't think anyone's faulting you for your opinion here. But you also need to understand that to the other guys in that pile, what you do looks like snoozing through a tower defense level - marking off worthless experience packets punctuated by the occasional interesting fight. Where's the challenge?

This isn't a Streetfighter tournament, where you fight to the top and anyone who complains about the system is labeled a scrub. This is a F2P MMO where the bottom 90% needs to be happy and spending money for the game to survive. If I was SOE, sitting on the button, knowing that what whatever I do might push the "aces" into session-based games with higher skillcaps, I'd find that very unfortunate. But I'd still push the button.

Unless, of course, there's a solution that, magically, everyone likes. For a problem that, admittedly, we're guessing at the definition of.

I dunno man, I just work here.

The issue maradine is if we are killing people to easily then there is a lack of challenge. Yes skill will always be a factor in dog fighting, even if they removed vertical thrust 100%. But it will be a major blow to the variables that take place in current dog fights by reducing vertical thrust by 75%. Currently when I engage a good pilot I know the fight will be a mixed bag of different possible outcomes. If pilots lose the ability to do RM safely it will just turn into something more similar to BF3 then PS2. If all I wanted to do was play chase the tail of my enemy I would re download Bf3 and enjoy myself.

And from what I saw across reddit and planet side forums there are quite a few upset pilots on these changes. I personally feel they still want air to be of some kind of challenge but are searching for a way to make it more approachable. I just hope nerfing capabilities isn't there way to make the game approachable. I feel giving a solid tutorial, and brief players that flying isn't easy is the best approach. Hell telling people your game is a challenge is a selling point rather then giving in to the lowest denominator.