Implants, take 2.

[Maidere]

yay.
More vertical progression.

[BlaxicanX]

Originally Posted by AThreatToYou

I am sorry, but I have to interject here on your seemingly massive error.

F2P games are wholly based on the thought that "players are content". The more players you have, the more likely anyone is to pay, at any amount. At that rate, consider two things: Players have more incentive to play a game because a player is more likely to know someone else who is playing it. They also have more incentive to play it simply because the game is active. Further, their incentive to pay is their value behind the game. The more fun they have playing the game, and the better their view of all things directly associated with it (including the player community, game content, game developers, and publisher), the more likely they are to pay. F2P games thrive on addicting players; anything that could possibly throw away players is going to be bad for the game itself (on a popularity scale) and thusly revenue.

... how does this contradict anything I've said? Yes, everyone knows that a larger player pop equates to more money. The problem (which you don't seem to understand), is that "more players= more money" is only true OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

Do you think that if Hossin, Amerish lattice, continental lattice, and the resource revamp came out TOMORROW, that PS2's player base would be flooded with thousands of returning old players and new players, enough to provide a significant gain in profit for SOE? It would not. Yes, we might get thousands of more players, but that would occur over the course of MONTHS if not over a YEAR. And that's assuming that these features came out tomorrow, which they do not; more realistically, we'll some of those features come out this year, but not all of them. On the contrary, implants or some equivalent would get them a shit ton of money NOW, which is important.

SOE had better know that these implant concepts are not good with their player community. Responding by simply cutting off this content would at least prevent further damage. And if SOE is run by humans, they should have loss-prevention psychology, and prevent this from happening.

The player community is greedy, and wants the best of both worlds. The player community needs to take its head out of its collective ass and realize that micro-transactions are the only way to keep a F2P system afloat, and that new content for people to buy with real money has to constantly be created. If you want a game where every item is balanced and equal and you're not short-changing yourself by not getting it, petition SOE to make the game subscription-based rather than F2P. As long as the game is F2P, there WILL be thing that cost actually money, and they WILL be balanced to be very powerful, so as to entice people to spend actual money on getting it. That's just the nature of F2P.

Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not defending P2W, I don't think its a good thing at all for a game. But I just recognize that it's inevitable. So rather than simply screaming "NO!" every time they introduce it, we should instead try to get them to make it as balanced and not quite as pay2win'ish as possible. Because what's going to happen, is that SOE is willing to play ball with us now, and are willing to not implement features that aren't popular, but that's not going to last forever.

[exile]

Ffs, is it possible to even make an attempt at reasonable discussion?

The need for a long-term cash sink for the game is self-evident. Sony did not create this game out of the goodness of their hearts, for the benefit of mankind! ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THEY NEED TO MAKE MONEY. The ideal way to do this is give players the option to spend cash on stuff that is cool and desirable, without being a "must-have" advantage.

Did the people crying "pay2win!" even read the post? None of the implants listed will give you a direct advantage over someone else in a firefight. They are all utility abilities that enhance or counter very specific situations. And they do have a disadvantage to use, as clearly stated in the post, by overriding the default ability of the implant slot.

Of course for balance the devil is in the details, but my impression of most of these is that, rather than skewing balance in favour of players paying for implants, it will actually make good players better, without implants, because in general you will need to be smarter about how you play the game.

edit: Ok, reading back over the list maybe the flinch reducing implant is a direct advantage in a firefight. I don't really notice flinch since it got reduced so I don't see that as a huge advantage but maybe with certain weapons it would be.

[BlaxicanX]

I agree with that. I don't see them as distinct advantages any more than one could consider having an SMG in a CQC as having a distinct advantage. At the end of the day, they're just utilities, as you said. It's not like they're guns that do X more damage than every other gun in the game, or armor that's better than every other armor in the game. SoE has done a pretty good job at not turning the paid-access content into an arm's race.

[Pheonix]

Guys, implants are a great idea. From what I understand, devs plan to have one implant that is always on. Let's assume everyone has one and they're cheap. The loot-drop implants will fit into a second slot and will spice up gameplay.

Some players will accumulate more implants than others. But..A br100 tryhard won't breach a point guarded by two well placed neckbeards no matter how many implants he has. Whereas if YOU are getting pink socked by recursion sensor darts, pop sensor shield and you can go ham.


Sent from my iPhone using my ass

[AThreatToYou]

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

... how does this contradict anything I've said? Yes, everyone knows that a larger player pop equates to more money. The problem (which you don't seem to understand), is that "more players= more money" is only true OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

Do you think that if Hossin, Amerish lattice, continental lattice, and the resource revamp came out TOMORROW, that PS2's player base would be flooded with thousands of returning old players and new players, enough to provide a significant gain in profit for SOE? It would not. Yes, we might get thousands of more players, but that would occur over the course of MONTHS if not over a YEAR. And that's assuming that these features came out tomorrow, which they do not; more realistically, we'll some of those features come out this year, but not all of them. On the contrary, implants or some equivalent would get them a shit ton of money NOW, which is important.



The player community is greedy, and wants the best of both worlds. The player community needs to take its head out of its collective ass and realize that micro-transactions are the only way to keep a F2P system afloat, and that new content for people to buy with real money has to constantly be created. If you want a game where every item is balanced and equal and you're not short-changing yourself by not getting it, petition SOE to make the game subscription-based rather than F2P. As long as the game is F2P, there WILL be thing that cost actually money, and they WILL be balanced to be very powerful, so as to entice people to spend actual money on getting it. That's just the nature of F2P.

Now, don't get me wrong here. I'm not defending P2W, I don't think its a good thing at all for a game. But I just recognize that it's inevitable. So rather than simply screaming "NO!" every time they introduce it, we should instead try to get them to make it as balanced and not quite as pay2win'ish as possible. Because what's going to happen, is that SOE is willing to play ball with us now, and are willing to not implement features that aren't popular, but that's not going to last forever.

I, personally, was not arguing or disagreeing with the immediate gains from this stuff. I was arguing over the same long-term profit that you pointed out here:

is that "more players= more money" is only true OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.

Over a long period of time, these implants, if people really don't like them, will reduce the net revenue of planetside 2. Personally I don't find you disagreeing with that.

I tried to indicate that I was not disagreeing with you on principle in my last post. I'm talking about how putting this in as-is might have an adverse long-term effect if it is not changed to appeal to the long-term. I suspect everyone who's paid into PS2 so far has done so on the precedent that their purchases are an "investment" in that they never lose them or the benefits of them.

The mere thought of a temporary item that they can purchase for real money is annoying. It doesn't matter if the item lasts five hours or six months, you would get much more immediate sales if it was temporary. That is myself arguing over the implementation of the item itself. But if SOE is unwilling to make them permanent, then I don't think they should be put into the game at all.

My thought is: Through simply playing the game, they are not permanent. They would be temporary power-ups for non-paying players. If you pay, they are there forever.

... how does this contradict anything I've said?

Excuse me for being personal, but why are you looking for contradictions? I didn't want to start "an argument". I was pointing something out that you did not appear to make of note. I am more or less hoping that SOE sees the long-term investment before they see the short-term investment (and revenue) of this new content. My point was that the loss of players over something inflammatory like this will most definitely hurt the game in the long-run.

In any case, I'm not going on about P2W, player greed, or SOE's greed. If anything I am trying to help SOE: If this is how implants are going to be (temporary purchasable items), then I don't think we should have them at all. It does not make a difference the length of use; most people could barely get 20 hours in-game use out of them.

[Ghoest9]

If you sub the game there should NEVER be a reason pay more money for competitive advanatge.

[War Barney]

Originally Posted by BlaxicanX

I agree with that. I don't see them as distinct advantages any more than one could consider having an SMG in a CQC as having a distinct advantage. At the end of the day, they're just utilities, as you said. It's not like they're guns that do X more damage than every other gun in the game, or armor that's better than every other armor in the game. SoE has done a pretty good job at not turning the paid-access content into an arm's race.

There are definite issues with these though, T

The implant which makes you immune to concussion grenades for example makes them pointless as theres no reason to risk using them if they could do nothing, at least a frag the worst that'll happen is somebody reduces the damage a bit instead of negating it completely.

The implant that lets you see health and shields, unless thats only at very short range that will make snipers 500% more effective.

Thermal reduction... considering how many people use the NV scope thats a HUGE advantage, especially at night fighting VS its the only way you can actually see them.

And thats just the ones which give a obvious advantage in many situations, the stealth implant is going to make infiltrators even more of a pain in the ass, the quick use will make it even harder to defend against C4, though if I'm honest I'm happy they are doing SOMETHING about that as its always been stupid how you throw C4 like your carefully passing a egg to a child... if I'm standing next to a tank that could see and kill me any second I'd like to see a bit more urgency in how that C4 is thrown...

[Emperor Newt]

Originally Posted by exile

ACCEPT THE FACT THAT THEY NEED TO MAKE MONEY

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVTMol1s7w4&t=0m47s

[Redshift]

What i really don't want is to have to micromanage implants, if i have 1 or 2 slots that i can fill like for equipment on the character tab and then forget about them 95% of the time that would be A ok

[Baneblade]

The main problem with all of SOE's temporary items is that they count down in real time. So the people that get turned off the most by them are the people also most likely to buy them in the first place. Make them only expire via ingame time and viola, you have a leg to stand on.

[War Barney]

Originally Posted by Baneblade

The main problem with all of SOE's temporary items is that they count down in real time. So the people that get turned off the most by them are the people also most likely to buy them in the first place. Make them only expire via ingame time and viola, you have a leg to stand on.

Aye I hate how they do this, I've got a 6 month xp boost and its annoying knowing that if I go on holiday its going to tick away, over the course of owning that boost I'm probably going to lose about 3/4 or more of it in time I just wasn't playing and on top of that it encourages me to not try other factions till its finished as I feel like I'm wasting it. I'd be happier if the boost lasted less time but only worked while logged in.

[exile]

Originally Posted by War Barney

There are definite issues with these though, T

The implant which makes you immune to concussion grenades for example makes them pointless as theres no reason to risk using them if they could do nothing, at least a frag the worst that'll happen is somebody reduces the damage a bit instead of negating it completely.

The implant that lets you see health and shields, unless thats only at very short range that will make snipers 500% more effective.

Thermal reduction... considering how many people use the NV scope thats a HUGE advantage, especially at night fighting VS its the only way you can actually see them...

Most of the examples you give here are currently dominant strategies and introducing situational counters to these is actually good for game balance.

Currently a conc grenade is incredibly effective, any noob can throw one into a chokepoint and then pretty much waltz in and mop up. Adding the possibility that there may be conc immune players in there means that it is no longer a no-brain tactic. Saying "theres no reason to risk using them if they could do nothing" is ridiculous, you are basically saying "I don't want to have to actually use skill to beat someone".

You know why everyone uses thermal and NV? Because they are so effective they are basically "must-have" atm. They are currently "a huge advantage", giving them a counter actually improves balance and increases variety and effectiveness of tactical options across the board.

This is what I mean when I say that these options will make good players better, without implants. Added tactical complexity benefits smart players and teams.

[typhaon]

Originally Posted by War Barney

There are definite issues with these though, T

The implant which makes you immune to concussion grenades for example makes them pointless as theres no reason to risk using them if they could do nothing, at least a frag the worst that'll happen is somebody reduces the damage a bit instead of negating it completely.

The implant that lets you see health and shields, unless thats only at very short range that will make snipers 500% more effective.

Thermal reduction... considering how many people use the NV scope thats a HUGE advantage, especially at night fighting VS its the only way you can actually see them.

And thats just the ones which give a obvious advantage in many situations, the stealth implant is going to make infiltrators even more of a pain in the ass, the quick use will make it even harder to defend against C4, though if I'm honest I'm happy they are doing SOMETHING about that as its always been stupid how you throw C4 like your carefully passing a egg to a child... if I'm standing next to a tank that could see and kill me any second I'd like to see a bit more urgency in how that C4 is thrown...

That was my first thought.

Great. I already have enough trouble seeing VS - with that implant they might as well be invisible to me.

[exile]

Originally Posted by typhaon

That was my first thought.

Great. I already have enough trouble seeing VS - with that implant they might as well be invisible to me.

These are the discussions we should be having, concerns about specific balance issues, not flailing about with "omgz pay2win!" frothing at the mouth.

I also have a lot of trouble with visibility at night, thanks to bad glare in my computer room. I'm interested to see how they actually implement this. I assume that players with this implant won't be 100% invisible to NV and thermal, they will just be coloured in flat grey or blue like the terrain is? If that is the case it might actually still be better for night visibility than no scope at all.