Sniping Mechanics and Headshots - Page 4

Hmr85 · 2012-01-08, 01:29 PM

Thank you for clarifying that. That was the only real big concern for me.

Rumblepit · 2012-01-08, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Lonehunter

I don't think 1 shot kills should be common. Due to shields, different armor classes, possible shield implants or headshot immunities... pistols, shotguns, assault rifles, smgs should not get 1 shot kills.

But a Sniper who had to put a certain amount of time into the class (which is debatable, just not for those just casually being a sniper) should have an opportunity for 1 shot kills.

and i dont remember where i saw it, but this subject was talked about by the devs i think...... ill see if i can find it... they were saying you would have to invest time in that spec before the 1 shot kill becomes a option,or it was a mod for a sniper rifle that would allow for 1 shot kills but it took time to unlock....

let me see if i can find that info.

LongBow · 2012-01-08, 02:07 PM

whats the difference between a 1 shot kill from a sniper and a tank? nothing.... you guys are saying its ok to be 1 shoted by 1 thing and not the other, is what im hearing

I can understand the confusion - it is weird but let me try to explain.

A tank is big, its easy to spot - its also easy to predict, whatever way its turret is facing it can shoot.

with this information a player knows if it is safe to advance and if they make the wrong decision it is clear both that it was the wrong choice and why.

the problem is not instant death, it is the frustration the death causes.

(numbers chosen are to be easy not accurate)

lets say a random "wind change" causes 75% of head shots to miss no matter how skilled a sniper. And with recoil that sniper can reasonably shoot one shot once every 2.5 seconds -- so given good hunting conditions that's 1 kill every 10 seconds.

now a scenario where the sniper does 75% damage once every 5 seconds BUT there are no irritating "skill mechanics" ... that's still one kill every 10 seconds, but nobody is pissed off at the game!

---------

The primary advantage of snipers acting this way is it gives them access to a useful tool, "area denial" ... as a player sticks his head up and goes to 25% he has to stop advancing and take cover.

suddenly snipers are just as lethal in optimal conditions and, are no longer ass holes but "tactical assets"

NewSith · 2012-01-08, 02:32 PM

I'm thinking OSOK is fine because I am a sniper.

And also because hitting moving target is one hell of a challenge if bullet drop is present.. People will always complain about sniping if they aren't snipers themselves.

Because nothing can be more irritating than being killed by somebody you didn't even see.

But, well, get over it, everyone can hit still targets, and if you're getting killed alot, try to move more frequently. Usually it's not snipers nor their weapons to blame, but your own mistakes. I already forsee shitloads of hate towards me, since the game will be f2p, now don't make it undeserved.

texico · 2012-01-08, 02:59 PM

yeah, I was mentioning the same thing about the tank but I timed out and lost my post.

Instantly dying isn't a problem for players. It's their inability to react or have any influence over the events that lead to them dying instantly, even if they know what it is that's killing them. With a tank, it's not the same kind of "instantly" we're talking about here. When you're engaged by a tank, you don't die in the instant that the tank engages you. You see the tank approach, you see the turrets looking for you, you can run, you can duck for cover or hop in a vehicle, or even try to destroy it somehow. Sure, it only takes one projectile to kill you, but it can't kill you instantly as it engages you, or at least if it does and a random shell hits you with no warning, you can accept it as a complete fluke. One-hit Sniping kills you instantly as it engages you. It's not so much about the projectile.

And it does have another affect. Unlike things like tank shells, with one-hit sniping you have to adapt your game before you've even been engaged, i.e you can't do certain things at all. If you're on an open road and you see a tank coming, certainly you have to change tact and run to the trees. But you adapt when the threat is presented to you. With one-hit kill sniping, you can't move on the open road at all, more or less ever. Because of the zero reaction time to being one-hit killed you can't adapt your game to being engaged. The only say you have is to not be in that position where you can be shot, ever. And so ultimately infantry won't be able to move at all, or very little, in the field near a body of enemies, which is what infantryside is about - engaging in battles in the field between groups of infantry, with vehicles providing a little extra support and muscle. If Infantry can't move because they'll get sniped with no ability to react, there won't be any infantry out in the field, and that aspect of the game is severely diminished.

Rumblepit · 2012-01-08, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by texico

yeah, I was mentioning the same thing about the tank but I timed out and lost my post.

Instantly dying isn't a problem for players. It's their inability to react or have any influence over the events that lead to them dying instantly, even if they know what it is that's killing them. With a tank, it's not the same kind of "instantly" we're talking about here. When you're engaged by a tank, you don't die in the instant that the tank engages you. You see the tank approach, you see the turrets looking for you, you can run, you can duck for cover or hop in a vehicle, or even try to destroy it somehow. Sure, it only takes one projectile to kill you, but it can't kill you instantly as it engages you, or at least if it does and a random shell hits you with no warning, you can accept it as a complete fluke. One-hit Sniping kills you instantly as it engages you. It's not so much about the projectile.

And it does have another affect. Unlike things like tank shells, with one-hit sniping you have to adapt your game before you've even been engaged, i.e you can't do certain things at all. If you're on an open road and you see a tank coming, certainly you have to change tact and run to the trees. But you adapt when the threat is presented to you. With one-hit kill sniping, you can't move on the open road at all, more or less ever. Because of the zero reaction time to being one-hit killed you can't adapt your game to being engaged. The only say you have is to not be in that position where you can be shot, ever. And so ultimately infantry won't be able to move at all, or very little, in the field near a body of enemies, which is what infantryside is about - engaging in battles in the field between groups of infantry, with vehicles providing a little extra support and muscle. If Infantry can't move because they'll get sniped with no ability to react, there won't be any infantry out in the field, and that aspect of the game is severely diminished.

lmao i must be the most unlucky person in planetside.

ive played many fps games with osok snipers and they are not a problem. players adapt, and move from the cover of one location to another,constantly moving while in the open.

if your just standing around in the open not using cover you deserve to die.

texico · 2012-01-08, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by NewSith

I'm thinking OSOK is fine because I am a sniper.

And also because hitting moving target is one hell of a challenge if bullet drop is present.. People will always complain about sniping if they aren't snipers themselves.

Well I am a pretty hardcore sniper myself, so this isn't so much about me personally, just what I think is fair.

Because nothing can be more irritating than being killed by somebody you didn't even see.

But, well, get over it, everyone can hit still targets, and if you're getting killed alot, try to move more frequently. Usually it's not snipers nor their weapons to blame, but your own mistakes. I already forsee shitloads of hate towards me, since the game will be f2p, now don't make it undeserved.

Well there's two aspects here. First is the irritation to the actual player. And yes, you can say that they should ultimately get over it and if they don't like it, leave the game. But we want this game to be a critical and commercial success and get the acclaim it deserves, so causing frustration and negging the game (in what could be a big way) when there's no need for it makes no sense. 2-shot-kills don't exactly bother the sniper any more, but 1-shot-kills will bother victims a lot.

Then there's the second aspect I've talked about. A lot of players will get over it, but they'll all also react by changing the way they play, even if they don't moan. People won't go outside as infantry near a body of enemies, and there won't be infantryside battles near the front line because people get one-hit-killed too much, or at least, the battles will be less intense and diminished. This in my opinion is a loss for the game that affects everyone, and most people would probably share that opinion; seeing as this is a player-driven game, surely we want players doing a variety of dynamic things in the battle field to make the fights more interesting with more variables, not hidden behind cover 80% of the time or only driving vehicles in the field.

^^

Gandhi · 2012-01-08, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by texico

It's their inability to react or have any influence over the events that lead to them dying instantly, even if they know what it is that's killing them.

I agree with everything you said. And it's not just about being able to see the tank, it's also about hearing it and seeing it on radar. All of these things give you a chance to react.

Even an OS gives you a chance to react, and unless you're unlucky enough to be caught smack in the middle of one in open ground in rexo you'll probably have time to avoid it. Now imagine if it had no delay at all. That kind of gameplay is never fun, regardless of what it is. Making it hard doesn't do anything to address this, and besides no matter how hard it is people will always get good at it. "It'll be hard" is a terrible justification for any game mechanic.

But anyway, we'll see how it pans out in beta. Worst case scenario I'll just have to become a badass air cav pilot with a nice sniper-revealing radar modification

texico · 2012-01-08, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Rumblepit

lmao i must be the most unlucky person in planetside.

ive played many fps games with osok snipers and they are not a problem. players adapt, and move from the cover of one location to another,constantly moving while in the open.

if your just standing around in the open not using cover you deserve to die.

Well as I've said, what the player deserves or whether they should bottle up and get over it is fine to say, but ultimately if they do get over it, they'll change their game in a way that demotes the presence of infantry in field battles.

And also, "standing around" is as a lot of people are suggesting a person dying from a one-shot kill would be doing is pretty exaggerated. You can be sniped with a one-shot kill even if moving, which is what most people would be complaining about (they'd probably reasonably expect to die somehow if completely stationary in the open). Even if that's not the case, if a sniper's following you with his scope you only have to stop for a moment, and most of the useful things infantry would be doing within the body of their empire in a battle would mean standing still - healing yourself or others, repairing vehicles, laying mines and spitfire turrets or field turrets, using a CUD, boarding and leaving vehicles, none of these things would be possible if people are waiting to snipe you.

And, I mean from what I've heard BF3 has had lots of complaints about its sniping. And also, most of those FPS games have perhaps 32 enemies in the biggest arena-style battles. PS2 could have what, 500? Whatever the utter limit is, it's going to be much much bigger. You're probably going to have bands of 20 Snipers on a hill that overlooks a base or the front line, which is how it tends to work in PS1. If players are

A, Getting killed with no ability to react or in any way prevent their death post-engagement
B, This is happening regularly because of the number of people doing it

You can bet anything that they'll

A, Get frustrated, complain, have a lesser opinion of the game, leave altogether
B, Stop doing whatever they're doing that's leading them to this scenario even if they enjoy it and it's good for the game (which in this case is Infantryside)

Forsaken One · 2012-01-08, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by Gandhi

"It'll be hard" is a terrible justification for any game mechanic.

This in a nutshell. even more so if its an excuse as to make something statistically overpowered or lame to deal with.

The game will just devolve to the point the only people having fun are the "skilled" ones shitting all over the people trying to play a video game for fun.

Originally Posted by texico

And also, most of those FPS games have perhaps 32 enemies in the biggest arena-style battles. PS2 could have what, 500? Whatever the utter limit is, it's going to be much much bigger. )

Unfun fact. in most F2p games even in CQC maps half or more of those 32 people will run around with sniper guns. EVEN if the game doesn't allow you to quick scope/no scope the lame ability of a one shot kill gives the gun a god level status of you ether use it and gain the skill to use it well or you pretty much GTFO of the game.

EVILoHOMER · 2012-01-08, 04:25 PM

Snipers were useless in PS and that was great IMO because you never got killed by one so you could stand outside and not worry, it was fast paced and fun. Another worry is headshots will make the gameplay too fast, especially seeing as games like Battlefield struggle with hit detection. I mean I'm worried that the hit boxes will be lagging 5ft behind your character like on Battlefield and head hit boxes are massive.

I would much rather one hit box and 2 shot kills from snipers. I don't want Planetside to become Battlefield, I can go play that shit if I wanted to but I don't.

Forsaken One · 2012-01-08, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by EVILoHOMER

Snipers were useless in PS

They were not. They played the support role a sniper is SUPPOSE to play. calling out threats, scouting areas, picking off weakened targets or softening targets up.

A sniper shouldn't even be shooting his gun unless its a VERY important target as after the shot he'll be forced to change his spot and as such be unable to recon, call things out, and just be unable to fulfill his support dutys till he's in a new spot.

overall snipers job is not to be a killwhore, and it shouldn't be in a game ether.

EVILoHOMER · 2012-01-08, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Forsaken One

They were not. They played the support role a sniper is SUPPOSE to play. calling out threats, scouting areas, picking off weakened targets or softening targets up.

A sniper shouldn't even be shooting his gun unless its a VERY important target as after the shot he'll be forced to change his spot and as such be unable to recon, call things out, and just be unable to fulfill his support dutys till he's in a new spot.

overall snipers job is not to be a killwhore, and it shouldn't be in a game ether.

I don't know anyone who played a sniper because the shooting mechanics weren't that great in Planetside and it was magnified with the Sniper rifle. It didn't kill with one shot and very rarely could you get two hits in a row with the damn thing. I spose it wasn't helped that players animated very poorly and seemed to dart about all the place half the time with lag. It's like when you used to run up stairs fast and float in the air for a few seconds lol.

Yeah you have to make sniping more fun to play but actually making the shooting mechanics good. I don't want to see how crazy it is in Battlefield 3 where sniping on big maps makes people scared to go out in the open. It's like the map 2Fort is ruined purely because of the lack of action in middle half the time. Why is this? Because Snipers are so OP there that everyone camps in their base or goes under. Once you get rid of them suddenly middle turns into a mad house and the game is fun again.

With Planetside as well if there really is going to be a thousand players in a battle could you imagine like 300 snipers owning everything from long range, just isn't fun. Then you give up and become a sniper too because it's easy kills for little effort.

DviddLeff · 2012-01-08, 05:49 PM

300 snipers against 300 air cav and 300 tanks? Sounds like a killing spree.

You are not going to see a glut of snipers when mixed arms is the only way to win.

Hmr85 · 2012-01-08, 06:05 PM

I played sniper off and on in PS. I can tell you I never went out alone if I could help it. Most of the snipers I know went in pairs and were on team speak. You where able to call out the target and put one round from each on the target for a instant kill. It was very effective if done right.

Snipers where by all means not at all useless in PS1.