Supression Effect - Page 7

Skitrel · 2012-03-16, 07:01 AM

Originally Posted by Vancha

I just realized this entire thread is an example of rampant bad game design. People have become incredulous at a game being able to evoke instinctual reactions.

If a game has to give a visual representation of what your character's feeling because you aren't, then it's already failed. It's like having emotional cue cards in a movie. "Feel sad here", "this is a happy moment", "this person's in danger, feel anxious!".

How can anyone be scared of anything in Amnesia? Penumbra? Dead Space? I haven't played any of these, but I know of them because they're infamous for scaring people. Granted, PS2 isn't a horror game, they just happen to be the best examples of games evoking emotional/instinctual responses.

This is the importance of immersion. This is why people fight for the inclusion of boarding animations and holstered weapons. It's subtle psychological things that help suck you into a world, whether it's movies, books or games. If you're detached and have no emotional investment, then everything is meaningless.

As always, Extra Credits manages to explain what I'm trying so hard to...

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/the-skinner-box

Games are somewhat fortunate in that there's two ways to enjoy them. There's the engagement aspect (narrative, story, emotional investment etc.) and then the reward systems like the skinner box. Levelling up, unlocking things, gaining achievements...

I'm not saying that the latter shouldn't be there. It's a good thing, but if you want people to be afraid of dying and averse to exposing themselves to a wall of bullets, it's the former that needs to be improved upon. You need to trigger people's sense of self-preservation, which can't be done if immersion is non-existent.

You've not played Amnesia but you're going to cite it in support of your argument?

Those games don't support your argument, they support the exact opposite. They make liberal use of visual effects to stun, startle, trick, unease, and generally mess with the player. They do it MORE than any other game out there in fact. They do absolutely everything, exceptionally well and it completely supports the concept of giving the player a visual representation of how scared they should be, because it works. If it works, it's a good thing. And it Amnesia is the best example of just how well it all works, absolutely terrifying.

It's usually best to cite games that support your points, rather than the opposite.

Vancha · 2012-03-16, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Skitrel

You've not played Amnesia but you're going to cite it in support of your argument?

Those games don't support your argument, they support the exact opposite. They make liberal use of visual effects to stun, startle, trick, unease, and generally mess with the player. They do it MORE than any other game out there in fact. They do absolutely everything, exceptionally well and it completely supports the concept of giving the player a visual representation of how scared they should be, because it works. If it works, it's a good thing. And it Amnesia is the best example of just how well it all works, absolutely terrifying.

It's usually best to cite games that support your points, rather than the opposite.

Erm, where did I argue against visual effects that affect the player's state of mind? I'm pretty sure I specified my problem was with visual representations of things your player is feeling that you aren't.

If there's a visual effect helps someone feel afraid of dying, then they should go for it.

It's usually best to attack arguments that have actually been made, rather than the opposite.

Skitrel · 2012-03-16, 07:16 AM

I don't feel pain therefore we shouldn't have a visual effect of the pain being shot causes. - See what I did there?

Your logic does not work. You need to be specific or your statement needs rewording to avoid the confusion.

Bags · 2012-03-16, 07:22 AM

If it's in only visually, please make it a toggle.

Vancha · 2012-03-16, 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Skitrel

I don't feel pain therefore we shouldn't have a visual effect of the pain being shot causes. - See what I did there?

Your logic does not work. You need to be specific or your statement needs rewording to avoid the confusion.

Yes, you played with semantics, or are you being purposefully obtuse?

Originally Posted by Vancha

If a game has to give a visual representation of what your character's feeling because you aren't, then it's already failed. It's like having emotional cue cards in a movie. "Feel sad here", "this is a happy moment", "this person's in danger, feel anxious!".

Read that and tell me what you think I mean by "feeling". Physical feelings or emotional feelings?

I know I'm bad at explaining myself, but I put quite some time into trying to communicate an idea in my longer post, at least read it. I talk about fear, immersion, psychology and emotional investment...It's pretty clear that I'm talking about what's going on in the mind of the player.

Boogster · 2012-03-16, 09:37 AM

Sounds absolutely horrific. I don't want any blur, any shaking, or anything really. Tracers and the noise of it all should be enough.

Algo · 2012-03-16, 10:54 AM

Its not directly related to suppression but:

Is there a thread discussing the likes of screen shake, motion blur, dof, splatters on the monitor, headbob, silly visor cracking and redding out when hit (tribes ascend in particular), all the shiny stuff modern games often overdo? I can't play some games because they're so over the top i get sick after minutes and they cant be disabled.

I loved the simple super visible hit indicator that they used in the demo.

signed,
Motion sickness prone gamer

Vancha · 2012-03-16, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by Algo

Its not directly related to suppression but:

Is there a thread discussing the likes of screen shake, motion blur, dof, splatters on the monitor, headbob, silly visor cracking and redding out when hit (tribes ascend in particular), all the shiny stuff modern games often overdo? I can't play some games because they're so over the top i get sick after minutes and they cant be disabled.

I loved the simple super visible hit indicator that they used in the demo.

signed,
Motion sickness prone gamer

Screen shake was covered in a thread on page 2 entitled "A video that can help the PS2 developers..."

We've been promised no jam on the monitors from getting hit.

As for the rest, I don't know. What's dof?

Algo · 2012-03-16, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Vancha

What's dof?

Depth of field ie when you aim down sights and everything not near the aim point is blurred, which is kinda realistic but my eyes refuse to forget im looking at a flat, even 2d surface and not at a real landscape.

Vancha · 2012-03-16, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Algo

Depth of field ie when you aim down sights and everything not near the aim point is blurred, which is kinda realistic but my eyes refuse to forget im looking at a flat, even 2d surface and not at a real landscape.

Ah.

I wonder if some of your issues would be fixed by a wider FoV? It sounds very similar to the issues people have with 50-70 FoV on computer monitors.

Algo · 2012-03-16, 11:37 AM

Wider fov helps a little, i don't even touch games if i cant have at least 90 fov. If i can, i play on 100-110.

Timey · 2012-03-16, 11:43 AM

I hate supression in bf3. It promotes spray & pray. If someone shoots at me and misses, I'm fine if my screen blurrs, but I'm not fine that if I can react and aim between the eyes of the shooter and pull the trigger my bullet hits my own leg. He missed me, why should he be rewarded for it by making my aim shit?

NewSith · 2012-03-16, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Skitrel

Yes we are talking about visual effects. Keep up with the conversation, it moved to ONLY visual effects after Higby chimed in on the first page explaining there would be no accuracy hit.

You're arguing with nobody, about absolutely nothing.

I'm not arguing, I'm reminding. There're too much people that read the last page only.

EDIT: Ahah, just noticed... "not". It wasn't meant to be there. Sorry for any confusion...

Eyeklops · 2012-03-16, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Timey

I hate supression in bf3. It promotes spray & pray. If someone shoots at me and misses, I'm fine if my screen blurrs, but I'm not fine that if I can react and aim between the eyes of the shooter and pull the trigger my bullet hits my own leg. He missed me, why should he be rewarded for it by making my aim shit?

Some people are blowing the "BF3 suppression causes loss of accuracy" a bit far. I can still easily kill people 50M away ADS style while under supression, it's not near as bad as a few of you are making it out to be.
Matt already stated that there would be no decrease in accuracy under suppression so your arguing a moot point.
The point of the "blurry around the edges" thing while under suppression is to emulate a real side effect called "tunnel vision" caused by an adrenaline rush, look it up.

Stardouser · 2012-03-16, 02:34 PM

OK, I didn't read this thread but I did go through each page hitting search for "deviation" and "spread" and I didn't see anything so:

Battlefield 3 doesn't just use blur as part of its suppression, it also causes you to suffer increased random deviation. Did you guys know that, and are you advocating this too?

And for that matter, suppression aside, is PS2 going to have random deviation, bullet drop, etc?