Huge Outfits and PlanetSide 2 - Page 11

p0intman · 2012-12-21, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by GreatMazinkaise

I think there's another thing people are forgetting:

Fast re-secures... replacement of Hack and Hold with the tug of war (and every other capture system PS2 has had throughout its run) has made resecures impossible. In PS1 it was possible for a squad of competent individuals to fight their way to the CC and reset the hack completely, buying more time for friendly zerglings to show up and win the day.

That's just not possible anymore... you may take a point back, but it does very little to slow down the enemy zerg and has very little effect on the capture bar. The old fast re-secure outfits have been reduced to farming the hell out of the periphery of the zerg, they've just got nothing else to do in the current paradigm.

and every farm we find, SOE nerfs the ever loving shit out of, making the problem worse. its almost akin to saying they don't want us, sometimes. i kind of feel like its almost like they dont want competent, fast moving, and highly tactical outfits. they want zergfits.

i hate to make the analogy, but thanks to Thannis...

I'm not sorry, that is how it is.

Graywolves · 2012-12-21, 05:52 AM

I've had lots of awesome moments where a squad of guys gets the attachment of a huge amount of the other empire or for some reason they let us ghost hack them...

But ultimately the moments are fleeting and you can hardly make it into something more than "awesome! They sent 50 guys to kill 7 of us!"

The way the metagame is set up you can only bash heads at the front line for strategic assets.

The terrain is very awkward. It gets wide and open with no cover and then it gets restricting and bottlenecked. A lot of hills deny infantry to climb over the top or meneuver into flanking positions as well as vehicles.

There's a lot of room to expand upon and touch up. Many different factors go into why small team organized gameplay isn't as rewarding as grabbing 10 squads and pointing them at a target.

For some reason it feels like they forgot trees exist or only look at them as something purely aesthetic. Right now the game pretty much revolves around farming or blitzkrieging locations and there's a horrible transition from location to location. The empty expanse from location to location makes field combat rare and areas harder to defend.

KaskaMatej · 2012-12-21, 05:55 AM

IMO, for base defence XP bonus, there should be a flat bonus, not percentage.

Instead of that measly 15% if you're defending a facility, you'd need to kill 60 people to get the same amount of XP you'd get for capping said facility (1000 XP). Yes, I know, there are other actions you get (resupply, revive, heal, spot, repair, kill streaks) but getting 60 kills anywhere else but in a Biolab is nigh impossible, even if you're in an ESF.

It also makes repairing turrets more rewarding (still useless because turret are squishy and weak) but at least risk/reward will be more beneficial to defenders trying to repair. It would also make kills be less important, making support classes more sufficient at doing just that, support.

Then, even at small and large outposts there would be a real, real defence. They would just need to make outposts less spawn-room-campable. IMO.

typhaon · 2012-12-21, 07:41 AM

I'll probably echo a lot of what has already been said...

PS2 is a larger game. Organization is always going to be advantageous... so larger populations are just going to lead to larger organizations. This will be true no matter the allowed size of outfits.

Smaller outfits can certainly be effective - you just have to adjust your goals. No - a squad or two won't be able to hold anything against the zerg. I think you're just going to have to adjust your goals and expectations.

2 squads can certainly be very effective in a massive fight. 25 ESFs show up - that's going to swing balance of the air battle REALLY quickly. 25 MAX rush into a base... that's going to change the situation. 25 infantry drop on to the roof a Tech Plant - you'll secure the balcony, quickly.

If you don't want to dive into the main battle... 2 squads can easily secure surrounding territories, cutting off the enemy.

Now - I think you're certainly right about bases not being defendable. I'd say in most cases, it's actually better to NOT be in the base. At least when you're not in the base, you can try and dodge TANK/LIB/ESF spam... Serious, serious problems that need to be addressed...

Other than certain instances where there are extreme skill/gear differences between groups of players - raw numbers are going to always be the major deciding factor in fights. That's just a reality of war in games and IRL.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-12-21, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by p0intman

malorn, tldr of this thread:

give us targets that are fit for 1-2 squads or so that do not subject us to the horrible tank/liberator spam and zergbattlefieldside that are also meaningful and fun, and on as many bases as is possible.

couple of questions to keep in mind when messing with terrain/bases:
"if i bring 40-100 guys to this fight, does it completely shut down the fun here?"
"can i effectively lock down any chance of defenders being able to defend, either through spawn camping with libs or tanks or by setting up a crossfire on a telepad, in such a way that defenders stand no chance?"

if the answer to either of those is yes, at any time, you're doing something wrong.

You do understan that 100 guys might seem like a lot, but really isnt a lot of people in planetside 2. And if the massive scale of this game makes your two squad outfit feel insignificant then youre just playing the game wrong. I know youre playing the game wrong because I have seen over and over how sucessful a small outfit can be in planetside 2.

Kracken · 2012-12-21, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by p0intman

telling us to go play another game like battlefield is ironic given that we're trying to get away from battlefield gameplay. The irony is just... LOL.

think on this: you're telling us to GTFO a franchise we've effectively called 'home' for the last decade or so now. would you ever dare go to someones home and do the same?

dont do it here. I'm frankly tempted to tell you to go back to WoW/LoL/BF3/CoD/AoC or whereever the fuck it is you were before PS2 came along, but im being nice for once.

I came from SWG. Never really played anything else but I have been testing SoE titles since 2003 and been a community volunteer.

I don't know who you are or what you cal "home", what I do know is PS2 due to it's scale is the only shooter I've ever even been remotely interested in. So this thread is basically saying it's scale is too big, change it to suit smaller outfits.

You folks have some anger issues if this is you being nice, you need to drink more man or get some lovin'.

CFFluddyBunny · 2012-12-21, 08:16 AM

PS2 is designed to be a social game - similar to WOW. People join the game and stay because of the relationships they develop long after their interest in the game has waned. PS1 allowed "lone wolf" players much more scope. I used to play a cloaker that drove an AMS - I'd take my spawnbuggy to a suitable location and spend my time dropping mines and setting up spits and still felt part of the overall gameplay. PS2 is a lot of action and nice lighting effects but unless you are part of a group that sense of involvement is, to me, missing.

PS1 had a lot off issues with elitist outfits and people who forgot it was a GAME. I'm pretty sure that once PS2 is more established they'll be a place for small outfits who can specialise (like the old gal drops and max crashes)

Perhaps another window on the map showing a live update of the overall strategy for the cont could be introduced so rather than people instant actioning they could have an indication of where the thrust is. I know experienced people will be able to judge that for themselves but the old CR5 globals "going to xxx next can we have some AMSs moved there" did work.

Dragonskin · 2012-12-21, 08:37 AM

They could remove some of the zerging effect if the deploy button was removed from hot spots and outfits... players in general ......actively had to travel to the location. Then you might have small fights a long the way more often instead of people just deploying to 1 location... stay there until they can deploy to the next location.. all just bouncing around. There are already tons of ways to get to a spot on the map. All bases have sunderers and flashes now.

ringring · 2012-12-21, 08:41 AM

* Do resources need a bigger role? (in theory, a small outfit can better do resource denial with small territories)
I doubt it. If resources prevented people from rolling an armour column I think the only response would be frustration and as it making territories small would remove some 'structure' to the progress of the continent, if you know what I mean.
* Does territory capture need to be slowed down to allow for response, regrouping, and to wear down a zerg?
Absolutely. But it needs to go hand in hand with other changes, for instance is a 'team' attacks an outpost and forces the defenders back into the spawns within 2 minutes but then has to wait for another 10 for the hack, well I don't think anyone would be happy. Similarly if a group is defending a hacked outpost at the cap point and all get taking out by a passing lib wouldn't be fun either. In short, if we want extended fighting over hacks/resecures, which I think we do the outpost and bases need more defensibility.
* Does defense need to be more rewarding XP-wise?
Yes - I think there's enough XP available but part of it at least needs to be more visible. e.g there is an xp bonus like now (perhaps reduced a tad) but there's also a success in your face bonus at the end. Alternatively, have xp proportional to activity within the area a la PS1, which did work.
* Do vehicles need to cost more resources to help reduce spam?
Resources don't control vehicle usage really. All the will happen is that people will pull vehicles as now but then get frustrated when the resrouces run out. I thing an easy fix is to nerf the main gun and buff the secondary - the PS1 magrider is a good model to follow.
* Do deployment options need to be reduced to encourage more natural concentration of force? (I'm thinking PS1 here where you had 3-4 options on where to spawn and it kept forces together so you weren't steamrolled as much and opened up opportunity for small outfits to avoid the concentrations)
I don't think so, I think spawning options are fine.

I am a leader of outcasters which has a membership of a little over 200 now and we generally run 2-3 squads during the evening.

Hosp · 2012-12-21, 09:26 AM

My 2 Cents:

With the current state of the Game:

- No Meta-Game
- Indefensible Facilities
- Little to no Death Penalty (as in increasing spawn timer)
- Lack of modifiable Inventory (Not huge, but it really helped separate a Special Ops player from a zergling)
- Vehicle Campable Spawn Points

All of the above are, in my eyes, are a contributing factor to the lack of ability for smaller outfits to be effective. As a result, we (see sig), have been forced into special ops where we can still move faster than the zerg, get ahead of them and soften up if not begin to take the next objective to speed the zerg progress. Currently, that's the only significant operation Spec.Ops. outfits can do and be effective.

Now, I know the game is still in Open Beta. (lets be honest, there's no beating around the bush on it). So I'm giving it till Feb. or March till I drop it like a bad habit. But if that ends up being the case, PS1 going F2P may see a
resurgence as all the vet outfits go back to continue the glory days leaving PS2 a ghost town.

They need to fix most of the above and put the grind back into prying an enemy out of a base. Winning the long battles, be they in base or field, are what made PS1 fun, because around those long battles, were numerous smaller battles as Spec.Ops. fought in and around the lines trying to gain their empire the advantage.

PS1 wasn't perfect, but it was/is certainly more complete.

Hamma · 2012-12-21, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Kracken

Why do you selectively quote and then threaten? All I did was search FPS and look for games with objectives built for less players then quote the websites. How is that bullshit?

Originally Posted by Kracken

I came from SWG. Never really played anything else but I have been testing SoE titles since 2003 and been a community volunteer.

I don't know who you are or what you cal "home", what I do know is PS2 due to it's scale is the only shooter I've ever even been remotely interested in. So this thread is basically saying it's scale is too big, change it to suit smaller outfits.

You folks have some anger issues if this is you being nice, you need to drink more man or get some lovin'.

Honestly the issue is we have seen this "GO play BF3 COD __INSERTSHITTYFPSHERE__" for the past year and a half we have been talking about PlanetSide 2 on this forum and it isn't constructive. Many of us are pretty tired of seeing this canned response.

Sounds like you just did it by mistake not knowing.. it's all good. Jump into the thread!

Hamma · 2012-12-21, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by robocpf1

Malorn, I'll throw out some examples I've found, hopefully they'll get the creative juices flowing. Without delving too deeply into "what the problem is", because people have nailed that, here are just some things from PS1 that made small outfits thrive, and a couple of "new" ideas.

1) Towers. In PS1, a "Tower" was either in the middle of nowhere and nobody fought there, was in the middle of a main thoroughfare for vehicles (like the one between Aja and Bomazi, it was the focus of some intense armor fights) or were "tied" to a base. They were important. You had to have the tower to take the base 90% of the time. In PS2, there are too many different outposts (and four different spawns per facility, one of which is a "tower"). Small outfits used to excel at denying these and starving off the large outfits that were trying to take the base. Without the tower, large outfits couldn't push in, and the assault would fizzle. In PS2, this situation doesn't happen.

2) Base draining / NTU. A way to hit a base that isn't linked. Imagine on Indar if a small outfit snuck behind VS lines and either captured Hvar, killing our tech, or neutralized it, causing nobody to have it but now it has to be both recaptured and filled with fuel. It doesn't matter if you're able to hold it very long, you've just killed our ability to pull tanks, and that both gives you a great fight and helps your empire. If our empire doesn't respond promptly enough, you can go back and kill us even more. This also stops the zerg from jumping so quickly. If we have to actually stop and fix what we break, defenders have more time to prepare. Usually, when I get ousted from a base, by the time I spawn at the next base up there is already a Sunderer deploying and a large tank force rolling in because the zerg doesn't have to wait. Let's make them wait a couple of minutes.

3) Generators were linked to the benefit, not to a shield. Gen holds were a huge draw to small outfits. You go and kill the gen of the only interlink on a continent, everyone's swarming to you. You might hold it long enough for your empire's larger force to push into their base though. Without that radar, their forces are weaker. You could kill tech or their dropship repair benefit, too. Nobody really killed gens for the biolab or amp benefit, but if they were more important that could work.

4) Cave Modules were a force multiplier. I think I can reliably say that when SOE released core combat, even though the BFRs weren't great, the mods you could harvest from caves made small outfits even more of a threat. They also gave small outfits yet another target - take out the enemy's mods so they have less benefits, or even better, STEAL the enemy's mods and take them as your own.

5) Make-Your-Own-Objective! In PS1, you could manipulate the lattice and the spawning mechanism to sort of pick an objective that wasn't an objective. The best way I know how to describe this is a "Medical Room Hold". You get a squad of guys and take the medical room in a PS1 bio lab and make a nuisance of yourselves. This is a base on the front line, people are spawning, and you and your squad are killing them all as they try to run out the door. Eventually the other empire notices and rushes you, but you've just delayed their vehicle reinforcements by several minutes and caused a pretty big diversion. Loads of exp as well. Or, if the NC is about to cap a TR LLU...maybe a small VS outfit comes in and camps the capture area so they can't. That was always fun.

6) A dynamic, mobile target - this is a new idea. Imagine a cross between an LLU and the rabbit event, except now instead of it being a rare event, it's up every few minutes. Small outfits move faster and with more precision, so how about a big blinking target that gives the empire some sort of benefit and the outfit exp if they capture it take it back to a certain base? It constantly changes where it spawns and the target base. Alert, enemy radar module located at Scarred Mesa. Capture it and bring it to Hvar, and we'll be able to see the enemy's radar signatures for the next 10 minutes!

7) Non-vehicle areas. A fortress where infantry reign supreme. The best footsoldiers survive. No tank shells or Daltons, no barrages from Lightnings, no roadkills.

8) LLUs / Capture the Flag - a faster way to take a base. Currently all base captures are by "king of the hill". I think many people have voiced their support for this and the devs have even mentioned they want to have more varied capture mechanics, I'm just noting it here.

9) Resource scarcity - I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm never low on resources. Ever. Unless I pull a tank and then immediately want to pull another one, I don't even keep up with how many resources I have. My infantry resources are important to me so I can keep refilling my supply of revive grenades and C4. Do we still get resources for fighting in an area? So if we fight at Ceres Biotech, which has infantry resources, and we get a kill, do we still get resources? Maybe that should be removed and we should only get resources during the "deposit" ticks, instead of accumulating them through fighting. That would give specific territories more value.

Yes
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Excellent post robo - great stuff there all of it.

Punker · 2012-12-21, 09:54 AM

100% endorse robo's post. Hit the nail on the head.

PredatorFour · 2012-12-21, 10:08 AM

Yeh great post that, i`d even say bring back hack and hold for a capture mechanic. Have the time similiar to what it was in the cave cc`s. This would help the smaller outfits do last second resecures again!

LexDecon · 2012-12-21, 10:29 AM

I lead a small outfit, we have literally as it sits roughly 40 members, at any given time we are likely to only have half a squad on.

First I agree with Robo's post. Second we've hit a wall playing PS2 as a small outfit.

We don't want to be a big outfit, we hate dealing with zergfits.

We've taken 8 guys and dropped into a territory and sat on it held it for as long as we can. Sometimes its a little under 15 min. other times its over three hours, most the time its a mass of zerg tanks and liberators that push us out. We are infantry. We fight like infantry, work like infantry and often times are zerged to death.

Its frustrating as it sits right now in PS2, small outfits do not get any benefits, objectives are seriously set to benefit zergfits or the larger 100+ plus outfits. Tech plants are good in some regards because we can go in. Hit a generator, sit on that generator and defend it from being repaired while the base is captured. Small objective oriented situations are needed. The over all "cap the base" let the zergs work it, give Small outfits the ability to move on a single objective and benefit from it as a group.

Another thing we are irritated with. We are foot, ground pounders, infantry. Lately we've had to start running tanks. because of the zerg of vehicles, and air. We want to play infantry, and have set up some awesome ambushes, that slow down the zerg but seriously with how fast people can just go and respawn another tank, or ESF, its kind of pointless. We'll keep doing it because its what we do. but tactical faill backs are getting old under over whelming zerg of vehicles just because they can.