Quick Knife

[Pillow]

I want selectable weapons only so i can do this

[Metalsheep]

Originally Posted by DayOne

Hence suggestions for a stun system. Not making you useless but alight blurring of screen plus no ability to aim down sights would be enough. Gives you a slight edge over a medium range rifle but if you whack a guy with a shotty you're screwed anyway.

Stuns, while not as bad, still dont sit well with me. That shotgun guy could just whack one of you, blow your buddy apart, and while your still recovering from the first stun, he kills you too. While a smart use of the stun, its kind of cheap that said shotgunner can take on multiple opponents easily due to his powerful CQB weapon AND stunning melee attack.

Though, instead of a stun, i wouldnt mind a "shove" kind of attack. Lets say you are using some kind of AoE weapon, like the thumper. Some guy tries to get all up in your face so you cant attack cause you'll splash yourself too. You give him the boot, dosent do damage, but it pushes him out of your space. I think AV MAXs in particular could benefit from a Knockback kind of attack. It was always lame to be AV, and have a softy hug you cause you'll kill yourself faster than you'll kill him. :/ The shove could also be useful for pushing away Knifers too, if they dont manage to kill you with an ambush. But you cant shove away MAX units or Rexo'd soldiers, due to their weight. (Maybe a MAX can push MAXs/Rexos, and Rexos can push Rexos and lighter. But not vice/versa.)

[DayOne]

[Dreamcast]

Tribes Ascend has a quick knife.


Not instant kill and doesn't make you jump to an opponent like COD. I wouldn't mind this to be honest but tribes seems less close quarters, could be more annoying in planetside since is more close quarter combat.

So I think it will be best if knifes were selectable and stronger

[Checowsky]

Please stop removing skill from games. It was annoying in CoD, it was more annoying when it popped into BF for no dam reason and it would be ridiculous in PS. Let us just have a nice knife fight every so often.

[Metalsheep]

Originally Posted by Raymac

Short answer: No, it's not balanced.

I've seen all kinds of troops from maxes to infiltrators running right past enemy troops, getting them to turn around and chase and sometimes tricking them into accidentally friendly fire their allies. Now imagine if those same units were able to hack and slash their way through the enemy as they were running. I shudder at the thought.

If ANY unit deserves to have a 1 shot kill melee weapon, its a MAX suit. Its a huge hydraulic powered behemoth of an armor suit. If you get close enough to a MAX that it can melee you, or let a MAX get close enough to melee you, you kind of deserve to be splattered by it. They arent exactly able to catch you easily. I'd assume they cant melee while autorunning.

Though it would be hilarious to snatch a guy Crysis style while autorunning as a MAX.

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

If ANY unit deserves to have a 1 shot kill melee weapon, its a MAX suit. Its a huge hydraulic powered behemoth of an armor suit. If you get close enough to a MAX that it can melee you, or let a MAX get close enough to melee you, you kind of deserve to be splattered by it. They arent exactly able to catch you easily. I'd assume they cant melee while autorunning.

Though it would be hilarious to snatch a guy Crysis style while autorunning as a MAX.

Well, it is kind of a moot point when it comes to Maxes, because if you ever found yourself point blank in front of an AI Max, it was respawn time faster than you can say Tim Tebow.

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by Metalsheep

Stuns, while not as bad, still dont sit well with me. That shotgun guy could just whack one of you, blow your buddy apart, and while your still recovering from the first stun, he kills you too.

Well the time and precise nature of a "stun" is something that we can play with a lot. Maybe it keeps you from firing, maybe it just knocks your aim off, or pulls you out of ironsights, pushes you back, widens your CoF, or any number of such things depending what weapon you're using.

[Sirisian]

Summary of thread so far. I didn't jump to any conclusions so if someone said they didn't want quick knifing, but didn't indicate if they'd be fine with a non-one-hit quick knife I marked them as against all quick knifing. So people that explicitly said "I'd like a quick knife button but I don't want it to be one-hit" were marked as such to distinguish the views.

Firefly - No quick knife
CutterJohn - Okay with hotkey for knife for 33%-50% damage
Vancha - No one-hit quick knife, open to the idea, but prefers equipped knife, wants throwing knives
basti - No one-hit quick knife, wants many different knife customizations, faster/higher damage/throwing
DviddLeff - One-hit backstab quick knife
Alanim - 33% damage equpped knife, One-hit backstab quick knife only if attacker has full shields
LongBow - No quick knife (no explanation or preferences)
Graywolves - No quick knife
Zhane - No quick knife
Dorest0rm - No one-hit quick knife, Cloaker can backstab if they uncloak for 2/3 of a second
Brokinarrow - No one-hit quick knife, wants many different knife customizations, faster/higher damage/throwing
Coreldan - Equip knife only
Figment - No opinion
RadarX - No opinion
BigBossMonkey - No one-hit quick knife
Sheppe - No quick knife
IceyCold - No quick knife
Vash02 - One-hit backstab quick knife
bmfof - One-hit backstab quick knife with QTE if target is moving or hit from the front
Tikuto - Okay with quick knife, likes traditional equipped
Shogun - No one-hit quick knife, like traditional equipped
DayOne - One-hit backstab equipped knife
Goku - No one-hit quick knife, infiltrators could get damage boost
Warborn - No quick knife, no one-hit equipped knife
Azren - No quick knife
Hamma - No quick knife
HitbackTR - No quick knife
EZShot - No quick knife, more damage for equipped knives than PS1
Bags - No quick knife
Trolltaxi - Quick-knife 30% damage drop your current weapon, 50% to one-hit backstab, can parry
nomotog - No one-hit quick knife, equip knife also
Gandhi - No quick knife
Neksar - No one-hit quick knife, one-hit backstab
BorisBlade - No quick knife
Tasorin - No quick knife
Arrow - One-hit backstab quick knife
Shade Millith - No one-hit quick knife
NEWSKIS - No one-hit quick knife, prefers equipped knife
Miir - No knives (watchout we got a badass here)
SKYeXile - One-hit backstab quick knife
AshOck - No one-hit quick knife
MrBlip - No quick knife
Gogita - No quick knife
inigmatus - No one-hit quick knife
Yutty - No one-hit quick knife, holding for more damage
Raymac - No one-hit quick knife
RodenyC - No opinion
Neksar - No one-hit quick knife
DeeTwoEh - No quick knife
Hmr85 - No quick knife
FoxBait - No quick knife, one-hit backstab
Metalsheep - No quick knife, extra damage for backstab
Cosmical - No one-hit quick knife
Pillow - No quick knife
NewSith - No one-hit quick knife, one-hit backstab
texico - No quick knife
Saintlycow - No quick knife
Hermes - No quick knife
Rarntogo - One-hit quick knife depending on armor type (infiltrator)
Sirisian - No one-hit quick knife, throwing knife
Erendil - No quick knife
Straws - No one-hit quick knife
That one noob - No quick knife, no one-hit knife except by infiltrators with implant
Soothsayer - No one-hit quick knife
Talek Krell - No one-hit quick knife, low damage, QTE assassination
BlazingSun - No one-hit quick knife
sylphaen - No quick knife
CidHighwind - No one-hit quick knife, equipped does more damage, but slower, more damage for backstab
GTGD - No quick knife
WiteBeam - No quick knife
ThGlump - No quick knife
Captain1nsaneo - No opinion?
xSlideShow - No quick knife, more damage for backstabs
TheBear - No quick knife, Infiltrator one-hit backstab animation
Biscuit - No quick knife
Casual - No quick knife
FIREk - No one-hit quick knife
MrSmegz - No quick knife
Scrima - No one-hit quick knife
VioletZero - No quick knife unless it one-hits (that's different)
WaryWizard - No quick knife
Zulthus - No quick knife, no throwing knife
Mastachief - No quick knife, no one-hit kill with knife
Rabb - No quick knife
Justaman - No quick knife
Hezzy - No quick knife
Aurmanite - No one-hit quick knife, one-hit backstab
beekergunship - No opinion
TacosWLove - No quick knife
acosmo - Quick knife
jangio - No one-hit quick knife
Hipshot - No quick knife
IDukeNukeml - No one-hit quick knife
kilroy - No quick knife
Sighpolice - No quick knife
Knightwyvern - No quick knife
Oty - No one-hit quick knife
waldizzo - No quick knife
Xennith - No quick knife (assumed it must be one hit)
Dreamcast - No one-hit quick knife
Checowsky - No quick knife

Optional, Wants weapon melee:
CutterJohn, Gortha, Coreldan, Shogun, basti, Shade Millith, Hamma, Vancha, Hermes, Rarntogo, Straws, That one noob, Myomoto, WaryWizard

Takeaways analyzing all the posts. No one likes the COD lock-on one-hit quick knife system. People are kind of clear that infantry using a knife against maxes would be ineffective. One-hit knife attacks are almost universally not supported, except when it comes to backstabs. If quick-knife is added most people still want the ability to equip the knife (secondary mode). Insufficient data to make any other absolute statements.

I want to take the discussion in a more focused direction. How should knives function. Should there be a quick knife button and if so how much damage should it do in your opinion. What about throwing knives? One-hit backstabs? (Animations for backstabs?) Class specific knifing? Modes on equipped knife? Customization ideas? (Class specific customization?)

Basically these questions are for more statistics. If enough people reply again I'll update and recompile the list. Also the 49 people that said no quick knife, can you be explicit if you don't want any quick knife button at all or if you don't want one-hit quick knives.

// edit, also don't quote the list. I might need to update it as people respond. Gets confusing if people quote old copies.

[EVILoHOMER]

I hate quick Knives, much prefer the old style of having to equip. It ruins COD for me where Knives are more powerful than guns, everyone just knifes each other.

Counter Strike does it best where it's a last resort or to humiliate someone.

[Neksar]

A dedicated melee button is always handy - I just don't think it should always be the knife. An infiltrator, or maybe light assault should also be the only one with access to knife upgrades. I don't see throwing knives as a plausible option, nor do I like the idea of lengthy backstab animations - backstabs were bad in AvP and Dark Souls (though that's an action RPG), and I don't want them in Planetside 2. I'm okay with bonus damage from behind, maybe even an instant kill with a short-but-sweet animation, but none of that melodramatic AvP BS.

I'd kind of like to see the return of on/off modes for knives. If that happens, I'd expect an activated knife to be a one-hit kill or DAMN near close. If you can hear it, you should be looking for it.

[CidHighwind]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Summary of thread so far....

*bows* you took way too much time to do that, but it is appreciated. Could you also put it into Excel, collate the data, and reticulate more splines?

Thanks man.

[MrBlip]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

I want to take the discussion in a more focused direction. How should knives function. Should there be a quick knife button and if so how much damage should it do in your opinion. What about throwing knives? One-hit backstabs? (Animations for backstabs?) Class specific knifing? Modes on equipped knife? Customization ideas? (Class specific customization?)

No quick knife button. The knife should be a weapon slot you have to actively select. Knives should behave similarly to how they do now: Primary fire is attack, secondary fire is a toggle between weak and strong attack, with strong attack making an audible noise.

Alternatively, the knife primary attack would be a silent quick slice, and the secondary attack would be a slow, strong attack that made an audible hum before and during the attack. In both situations, the hum from the knife should have a unique sound per empire.

Choosing to use your knife should be a tactical (sneaking up on someone) or fallback (out of ammo) decision, not a "OH SHIT THERE'S A GUY RIGHT IN MELEE RANGE, BETTER MASH THIS BUTTON FOR INSTA-GIB" decision.

No to throwing knives. Your typical soldier wouldn't have the need for throwing knives considering he's most likely carrying around a loaded firearm.

Throwing knives would be a little unbalanced for Infiltrators. It would give them access to a medium(ish) range silent weapon that would (probably) do moderate damage. You could make them have a relatively short range or low damage, but that would make them rather useless and no one would use them.

One hit backstab should only work on power attacks. Should be an audible hum coming from the knife before the attack lands to alert the victim and any surrounding players that there is someone nearby with a knife and he's trying to slaughter them all.

Could make it so by default, the knife can't one shot backstab through a shield. First backstab breaks the shield, second backstab kills the player.

Upgrading/customization options for the knife could maybe include and option that causes the backstab to disable the victims shield for an extended period of time, but reduces the damage it does to flesh. Maybe infiltrator gets a unique ability to instantly kill anyone (except of course MAX units) with a backstab through their shield, but it causes their stealth to flicker for a second or two.

Backstab animations are unnecessary.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by MrBlip

No quick knife button.
[...]
Choosing to use your knife should be a tactical (sneaking up on someone) or fallback (out of ammo) decision, not a "OH SHIT THERE'S A GUY RIGHT IN MELEE RANGE, BETTER MASH THIS BUTTON FOR INSTA-GIB" decision.

So how do you feel about a quick knife that does 33% damage? That is you see a person in front if you that you just shot and he's close enough to knife. What if quick knife had (as I explained earlier) a post swipe delay equal to the holstering delay of the given weapon? That is it's not one-hit so it's not an "instant win" button. Or are you more for firearm melee so you prefer not to talk about a knives as the only form of melee?

Originally Posted by MrBlip

No to throwing knives. Your typical soldier wouldn't have the need for throwing knives considering he's most likely carrying around a loaded firearm.

Even if it only did 33% damage and had a pre throw delay removing your only knife? Imagine firing a pistol at someone and instead of reloading you held your quick knife button and you saw an animation that instead of swiping your character flips the knife into a throwing position and releasing at 1 second threw it 15 m and for 1.5 seconds threw it 25 m. That is it's not an instagib weapon in the slightest with a cost almost rivaling a reload animation.

Originally Posted by MrBlip

Throwing knives would be a little unbalanced for Infiltrators. It would give them access to a medium(ish) range silent weapon that would (probably) do moderate damage. You could make them have a relatively short range or low damage, but that would make them rather useless and no one would use them.

You said yourself they'd be silent. Someone playing might hear wear a round was fired, but not a thrown knife. Hitting someone with 3 knives in the above solution with no modifications would take a while at least 5 seconds depending on the post delay. I think you might be jumping on the imbalanced idea too hastily.

Originally Posted by MrBlip

One hit backstab should only work on power attacks. Should be an audible hum coming from the knife before the attack lands to alert the victim and any surrounding players that there is someone nearby with a knife and he's trying to slaughter them all.

Could make it so by default, the knife can't one shot backstab through a shield. First backstab breaks the shield, second backstab kills the player.

Upgrading/customization options for the knife could maybe include and option that causes the backstab to disable the victims shield for an extended period of time, but reduces the damage it does to flesh. Maybe infiltrator gets a unique ability to instantly kill anyone (except of course MAX units) with a backstab through their shield, but it causes their stealth to flicker for a second or two.

I love that idea. I don't believe in a one-hit backstab since it seems too easy to get the first hit so what you propose is a balanced idea that gives the enemy a chance especially if they're in a group.

Originally Posted by MrBlip

Backstab animations are unnecessary.

I agree. Can't really explain why, but I don't like scripted actions in multiplayer games I guess. Kind of a weak argument.

Given that very useful feedback I think my favorite system has changed slightly (though your infiltrator knife customizations for damaging the shield are separate from the common pool version):

Version 2: My favorite knife system would be:

• Quick knife with post swipe delay (representing holstering delay different for each weapon) for 33% damage
  • Tapping the quick knife key swipes for 33% damage
  • Holding the quick knife key transitions to throwing knife after 1 second. 10 m range medium COF. 33% damage
  • Holding over 1.5 seconds has 25 m with small COF. 33% damage
• 3-mode equipped knife:
  • swipe, 33% damage (remember it's faster for continuous swipes than quick knifing since it lacks the post swipe delay)
  • stab, 45% damage
  • throw, single use 33% damage (better for multiple knives since there's no holstering delay)
• Throw has pre and post throw delay (longer animation). Slow spinning projectile.
• When equipped secondary stab mode does 75% damage when backstabbing.
• Maxes takes 10% damage from knife attacks.

Any problem with that design? It seems to take into consideration complaints of one-hitting reserving the whole design to a secondary choice below firearms. It also brings in the idea of backstabbing or getting the upper hand on an enemy. The only thing I did leave out was there is no bonus for hitting someone with a throwing knife from behind as it doesn't seem necessary as backstabbing is really where that bonus deserves to be (close combat and risky).

[Talek Krell]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

Version 2: My favorite knife system would be:

• Quick knife with post swipe delay (representing holstering delay different for each weapon) for 33% damage
  • Tapping the quick knife key swipes for 33% damage
  • Holding the quick knife key transitions to throwing knife after 1 second. 10 m range medium COF. 33% damage
  • Holding over 1.5 seconds has 25 m with small COF. 33% damage
• 3-mode equipped knife:
  • swipe, 33% damage (remember it's faster for continuous swipes than quick knifing since it lacks the post swipe delay)
  • stab, 45% damage
  • throw, single use 33% damage (better for multiple knives since there's no holstering delay)
• Throw has pre and post throw delay (longer animation). Slow spinning projectile.
• When equipped secondary stab mode does 75% damage when backstabbing.
• Maxes takes 10% damage from knife attacks.

I see little purpose in the throwing. Presumably you're carrying at least one firearm, so why spend your backup weapon fighting at range? Silence doesn't strike me as a strong argument. Balancing aside, it's not like they couldn't just make a silencer attachment.
By "stab", are you referring to the power mode?