Quick Knife

[xXSpectreXx]

Quick knife shouldn't be an insta-kill attack in an fps. I completely agree with "shooting someone in the face just hurts, when knifing someone in the toe is instant death" is pretty ridiculous.

I think a good plan would be making the knife only do 20-30% on people with over a certain amount of health and then make it do more damage to targets with lower health. Maybe make it do 45% damage to people with 45% health left, to make it stronger and be used as a finisher.

At the same time though, I think they should make this finisher like an full assassination in Halo Reach, with an awesome finishing move animation that kills the enemy. You have the choice to use your knife as a more powerful finishing move to quickly kill someone, but you know your going to be forced through a 2-3 second non-interruptable animation. Want to finish someone off extra quick? Go ahead and knife them! Fighting in a group of people, wasting 2-3 seconds to get a quick kill on the first guy probably isn't the best idea.

As for infiltrators I like the idea of maybe having the knife power up and make a buzzing sound that might give a heads up to an alert enemy that they are about to get ganked. Make sure the charge for the infiltrator to do extra damage on some sort of cooldown and give the infiltrator ways to use his knife that doesn't require long kill animations.

I also agree that using a knife against heavily armored units should be incredibly ineffective.

[Oryon22]

Quick knife is for douchebags.

[Gandhi]

Originally Posted by xXSpectreXx

At the same time though, I think they should make this finisher like an full assassination in Halo Reach, with an awesome finishing move animation that kills the enemy. You have the choice to use your knife as a more powerful finishing move to quickly kill someone, but you know your going to be forced through a 2-3 second non-interruptable animation. Want to finish someone off extra quick? Go ahead and knife them! Fighting in a group of people, wasting 2-3 seconds to get a quick kill on the first guy probably isn't the best idea.

People don't usually see it like this though. If they're forced to watch some 3 second animation like that they'll automatically think "who thought this was a good idea, it's just stupid" and blame it on bad game design instead of "oh I see, that's the tradeoff for being able to instantly kill this guy".

[dachlatte]

the knife as it was in BFBC2 was OP. you could kill dudes through walls and nonsense like that.

but i like the knife in BF3. if you attack the enemy head on it doesnt kill you instantly. backstabbing kills the enemy but has a lengthy animation. its always fun to steal the sandwich from a carebear recon

[Neksar]

I can see the knife leaning toward the one in Battlefield 3 as well. Used for stealthy kills and the like. There needs to be some mechanic to prevent it from being abused though. Hopefully the sheer scale of the game will prevent it from being a common tactic for killing people; I'd hate to see squads warping behind folks and assassinating them.

In my experience with BF3, the knife kills were something that didn't occur often, and when they did, it was because you had your pants down or were sniping from some remote location.

Consider this, though: Battlefield 3 has a quick knife, and it's not by any means overpowered. It's useful if you run out of ammo and need just that little push to finish someone off, or if you're behind your target, but otherwise it has no lock-on mechanics or insane damage. Come to think of it, that design sounds like a good point of departure for any sort of 'quick knife' that makes its way into PS2. I still want to be able to turn on my MAG cutter though.

[Sighpolice]

Stabbing somebody from behind or not will take quite a while, it won't be pleasant, it will be messy and there will be a lot of noise. With headshots in the game from pistols, just line a shot up and "boom" makes more sense using the pistol than a knife.

We've all seen that scene from saving private ryan when the jewish guy is stabbed by the dagger he stole? That's what would probably happen, not some lame mechanic that means you outright kill them and 0 chance to stop it.

(not implying racial hate towards jewish people, it's just what happens in the film)

[dachlatte]

Originally Posted by Sighpolice

Stabbing somebody from behind or not will take quite a while, it won't be pleasant, it will be messy and there will be a lot of noise. With headshots in the game from pistols, just line a shot up and "boom" makes more sense using the pistol than a knife.

We've all seen that scene from saving private ryan when the jewish guy is stabbed by the dagger he stole? That's what would probably happen, not some lame mechanic that means you outright kill them and 0 chance to stop it.

(not implying racial hate towards jewish people, it's just what happens in the film)

planetside 2 is not a war simulation.

[Vancha]

Originally Posted by dachlatte

planetside 2 is not a war simulation.

I'd say it sort of is, in some capacity. There's plenty of people who say they liked Planetside because they felt more like they were part of the war than in your everyday FPS.

I think if you could get a knife skill that allowed you to do a halo-style assassination from behind, but it was a long, messy, brutal, gory affair as sighpolice described (no invulnerability during the animation please), it might be rather good?

Edit: I should probably have checked what scene sighpolice was referring to before opening my mouth.

[Sirisian]

Okay given the feedback from a lot of people. I've revised my knife design. Note, but the damage are in the form of 30% = 4 hits, 35% = 3 hits. Updated the damage toward max to be none reflecting people's views. My reason for not putting favoritism toward knifing infiltrators (cloakers and snipers) is that they are generally not moving so making it say a 2 hit attack might be too quick. A lot of people have voiced their opinion that knifes should be a final strike, not a turn the corner and win button. Requiring someone to shoot their enemy down to 30% health and then using the quick knife (if they're at the required range) seems to be a good balance for saving ammo in the gun. It's also strictly balanced as a tertiary weapon below the Primary and Secondary weapon designed to give players choices, but not be better choice necessarily than using a secondary weapon. That is it serves its own unique purpose. The throwing knife transition time reflects this. There is also the concept of a knife parry added for quick time event people.
Version 3: My favorite knife system would be:

• Quick knife with post use delay equal to the unholstering delay of pulling out the weapon again. (Missing with a quick knife leaves you at a huge disadvantage time wise essentially).
  • Tapping the quick knife key swipes for 30% damage
  • Holding the quick knife key transitions to throwing knife after 1 second. 10 m range medium COF. 30% damage
  • Holding over 1.5 seconds has 25 m with small COF. 35% damage
• 3-mode equipped knife:
  • swipe, 30% damage. It's faster for continuous swipes than quick knifing since it lacks the transition back to a weapon)
  • stab, 35% damage, Audible noise like in PS1.
  • throw, single use 30% damage (better for multiple knives since there's no holstering delay)
    • Has pre (1 second to 1.5s when holding down the fire button) and post throw delay (longer animation).
    • If you don't hold the fire button for 1 second the throw is cancelled.
• Throwing knifes has Slow spinning projectile. So if you get hit the person that threw it might be behind cover.
• When equipped secondary stab mode does 75% damage when backstabbing.
• Maxes takes 0% damage from knife attacks.
• Damage is uniform across all classes with no class (other than max) having advantages or disadvantages.
• If two people knife at the same general time the attacks are parried doing no damage allowing friendlies to kill the attacker. Rare, but this was brought up and is really necessary if two people are at the same low health and want to quick knife each other at close range. This increases tactics and fulfills the concept of a quick time event for protecting oneself from knife attacks that a few people want.

And as I said bfore try to keep your discussion focused. (It's fine to say one-hit quick knifng is bad or COD wasn't your favorite game, but go further in you analysis of why certain features didn't work, and maybe how they could if you think that's possible).
I want to take the discussion in a more focused direction. How should knives function. Should there be a quick knife button and if so how much damage should it do in your opinion. What about throwing knives? One-hit backstabs? (Animations for backstabs?) Class specific knifing? Modes on equipped knife? Customization ideas? (Class specific customization?)

Originally Posted by Sabrak

No.

I mean, just like you have to decide to go out with a Lightning instead of a Vanguard and stick to it, you should have to choose to draw your knife out for a (good) reason, not magically grab it, stab a guy, and holster it in a second because you were surprised and had the reflex to press a key.

If the person is close enough and at low health you don't think it would be a valid tactic? I understand, as everyone else does, about turning a corner and not wanting to get one-hit, but if someone turned a corner and was was quick knifed with a balanced implementation they'd do nothing but hurt their chances of winning because of a delay. The above implementation makes quick knifing an option, but only for small scenarios against already damaged enemies.

Originally Posted by Sabrak

Again, as I said, this is Planetside.
You should choose to use a weapon.
And if you're taken by surprise, just use what you're holding right now, or take a chance and waste time switching to another weapon.
It shouldn't be made so that you can have the perfect weapon for a given situation (here, close combat) and a quick and easy hit-on-target just by pressing a key.

It wouldn't be used if you were taken by surprise really. Indeed if someone takes you by surprise chances are they are above 30% health with the above implementation so quick knifing would be a death sentence to try.

Originally Posted by Sabrak

Also, as it has been said, knives should be for stealth kills and out-of-ammo close combat situations.
I don't wanna see guys sprinting on the battlefield with their assault weapon in hand and suddenly stab someone in the face.

That's exactly what the above solution stops from happening. Misusing the quick knife is punished with the delay so it can only be used effectively in a few situations. Sprinting across that battlefield really wouldn't be one of them unless you see someone about to heal and instead of going for the easy rifle kill you run up to them and knife. Though this isn't any different than pressing the holster knife and knifing and then pulling out your gun again. The quick knife button performs that tedious macroed event for you essentially.

With that input are you more open to a balanced quick knife implementation?

Originally Posted by Jandor

A knife appearing from nowhere and instantly killing people or doing a crapload of damage is stupid.

All weapons appear from nowhere. PS2 has no holstering system. Chances are it will animate as appearing from the waist in a slashing motion. So you are fine with a quick knife as long as it doesn't one-hit? (Most people share that opinion so far).

Originally Posted by xXSpectreXx

I think a good plan would be making the knife only do 20-30% on people with over a certain amount of health and then make it do more damage to targets with lower health. Maybe make it do 45% damage to people with 45% health left, to make it stronger and be used as a finisher.

I originally said 33% in my implementation and someone said that it was too high. People are going to have varying feelings for the damage. I personally think 45% might be too high. While still being 3 hit it might make quick knifing too common. Though this would need to be a tested concept so I won't dwell on exact numbers.

Originally Posted by xXSpectreXx

Make sure the charge for the infiltrator to do extra damage on some sort of cooldown and give the infiltrator ways to use his knife that doesn't require long kill animations.

Oh man I didn't even think about that. Infiltrators should get that as an ability. Being able to charge a stab attack for instance by holding down and only attacking when you release would be nice for creating a charged up stab for more damage. (I don't feel any other class should have this ability, but infiltrators could use this). Really goes with the planning an attack idea for backstabs. (Shouldn't be one hit, but going from a base 55% to 75% would be reasonable probably given the risk and planning).

Originally Posted by xXSpectreXx

I also agree that using a knife against heavily armored units should be incredibly ineffective.

Noted. Others have voiced that opinion so I've dropped support for any damage on maxes. 10% seemed low, but honestly if you want to knife a max you're doing it wrong anyway.

Originally Posted by dachlatte

i like the knife in BF3. if you attack the enemy head on it doesnt kill you instantly. backstabbing kills the enemy but has a lengthy animation. its always fun to steal the sandwich from a carebear recon

So you're fine with a quick knife for front attacks as long as it doesn't one-hit? How strongly do you feel the animation helps? It is in a way a lock-on attack.

Originally Posted by Neksar

Consider this, though: Battlefield 3 has a quick knife, and it's not by any means overpowered. It's useful if you run out of ammo and need just that little push to finish someone off, or if you're behind your target, but otherwise it has no lock-on mechanics or insane damage. Come to think of it, that design sounds like a good point of departure for any sort of 'quick knife' that makes its way into PS2. I still want to be able to turn on my MAG cutter though.

Yeah that's what equipping allows. That is it's a more planned attack which is what my design above focuses on. Faster slashes when equipped because there's no transition back to the rifle/pistol. Then even more planning if you both equip then switch to the second mode to attack.

Originally Posted by Sighpolice

We've all seen that scene from saving private ryan when the jewish guy is stabbed by the dagger he stole? That's what would probably happen, not some lame mechanic that means you outright kill them and 0 chance to stop it.

I assume you mean you want quick time events (QTE)? I included a section for parrying attacks. Is that sufficient? If not can you explain the mechanism that you wanted and how it would play out with an example?

[dachlatte]

Originally Posted by Vancha

I'd say it sort of is, in some capacity. There's plenty of people who say they liked Planetside because they felt more like they were part of the war than in your everyday FPS.

I think if you could get a knife skill that allowed you to do a halo-style assassination from behind, but it was a long, messy, brutal, gory affair as sighpolice described (no invulnerability during the animation please), it might be rather good?

Edit: I should probably have checked what scene sighpolice was referring to before opening my mouth.

yes from a tactical stand point certainly but not from a "omg-i-stabbed-someone-in-the-neck-and-now-there-is-blood-everywhere-and-he-screamed-like-a-pig-in-the-slaughterhouse" standpoint.

Originally Posted by Sirisian

So you're fine with a quick knife for front attacks as long as it doesn't one-hit? How strongly do you feel the animation helps? It is in a way a lock-on attack.

yes.
i think the animation helps alot.
1. it makes teh knife balanced. if you surprise 5 guys in the bazaar death alley you can kill 1 with the knife. if the rest isnt braindead they will kill you after that. so you are by far more effective with your gun.
2. immersion. i remember many feeling very strongly about that when it comes to enter and exit vehicle animation. i dont see how this would be any different.

lock-on or not doesnt matter in bf3. you end up using the knife in situations where you have won already. it just makes it look nicer in general(back to immersion i guess)

[That one noob]

(Deleted by poster)

[Sirisian]

Cutting out the calls for extreme realism, and remembering this is a game I'll focus on your first part:

Originally Posted by That one noob

I suppose I didn't actually address the anti-quick knife stance of my old comment, so here goes; quick knife would only be useful as a panic button of sorts

Wouldn't making it not one-hit, which you already said would be fine, solve this problem completely? (That and the post swipe delay for reholstering that I've been describing makes quick knifing a final strike). So you see a guy you panic and hit the quick knife and you do say 30% damage. He then kills you since he has 70% health and your character is still transitioning back to your rifle.

If someone "surprises" you and they are standing right in front of you then you could just shoot them also. That would probably be just as fast but it would mean you'd have to reload if you wasted ammo so quick knifing is basically the preferred tactical approach in that situation.

Also I find it ironic that you support a punch or a kick melee, but not a quick knife. It sounds like you might want to think harder about why you don't like quick knifing. I'm thinking it's an irrational reason.

[Zulthus]

PS1 did it fine, no quick knifing in PS2 please. Pull out your knife to use it.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

PS1 did it fine, no quick knifing in PS2 please. Pull out your knife to use it.

I'm getting a bit tired of this viewpoint of "PS1 did it right". I can understand if you don't like knives at all in the game so that no one uses them, but just say that. Don't say "PS1 did it fine" implying that knives were actually useful for anything except for squad dueling. The whole goal of this thread should be making them actually useful in certain situations. No, not just the infiltrator can backstab people in "rare" situations. I mean making them have a purpose as a weapon for regular infantry. A quick knife button is one of the most useful ways to allow that for final strikes.

[Graywolves]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

I'm getting a bit tired of this viewpoint of "PS1 did it right". I can understand if you don't like knives at all in the game so that no one uses them, but just say that. Don't say "PS1 did it fine" implying that knives were actually useful for anything except for squad dueling. The whole goal of this thread should be making them actually useful in certain situations. No, not just the infiltrator can backstab people in "rare" situations. I mean making them have a purpose as a weapon for regular infantry. A quick knife button is one of the most useful ways to allow that for final strikes.

I actually think that knives should be near useless for anyone except infiltrators.