Boundaries

[Kaw]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Doesn't matter if they can get to their buddies, all they have to do is mash chat and type in "INCOMING GAL" and people at the base they're trying to attack will be ready for it.

There wont be hoards of people in random bases in the middle of nowhere defending. I thought the entire point of these spec ops was to hit bases that weren't well defended. If the base isn't already well defended, one person screaming in chat is never enough to change that before you should hit. It will almost certainly be impossible for individuals to convince the zerg to break off their attack and go defend.

[Pyreal]

I agree with the OP.

I've heard 'open ended', and 'sand box' from the Devs to describe this game. How is an Out of Bounds error message after you leave the coast compatible with those two phrases?
They ain't!

And even if they were, the 'Out of Bounds' mechanic for a 'persistent world' is incongruent, lazy, slipshod, unfun, restrictive, blasphemous, birthing-pain-bad, ill mannered, sloppy, disruptive, churlish, unkempt, impudent, contemptible, tacky, rueful, garish, shabby, peevish, sullen, and skulking!

It's over watered flapdoodle, and I glare at thee!

[Hmr85]

Originally Posted by kaffis

Fighter patrols over water are boring. Just like defending bases not immediately under assault is boring. That's not what the design goal for PS2 is about -- reducing downtime and getting into the action. Anything else just turns "special operations" into a game of who has the higher boredom threshold -- the passengers in the twenty-minute galaxy ride, or the fighters "patrolling" empty space.

Furthermore, who said anything about forced overflights of ground AA? Scout better, find holes in the defense. In an 8x8km island, there's bound to be something like 6 kilometers of front lines. 2000 people won't pack that tightly around the front.

I think your entirely missing the point here. Yes your right your average player is going to be more interested in following there zerg and constantly being in the fight. Which appears to be the type of player that your are.
However, your more team based outfit that's on vent coordinating with each other are not gonna wanna do that. They are going to look for every possible avenue of flanking the enemy or shutting them down.

The element of surprise is very valuable and your average member in a outfit like above is not going to mind the 20 minute flight down the coast to give a ass kicking to op4 ultimately shutting them down in that AO turning the fight in favor of their faction. The boundaries are a huge no no that needs to be removed.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Kaw

There wont be hoards of people in random bases in the middle of nowhere defending. I thought the entire point of these spec ops was to hit bases that weren't well defended. If the base isn't already well defended, one person screaming in chat is never enough to change that before you should hit. It will almost certainly be impossible for individuals to convince the zerg to break off their attack and go defend.

There don't have to be people defending the random bases. If you're forced to overfly contested areas, SOMEONE will figure out where you're going.

And don't forget the hex system is going to make backcapping slow, so removing flanking/stealth options on top of it will add up to being worse than a lattice system.

[Zulthus]

Originally Posted by Kaw

There wont be hoards of people in random bases in the middle of nowhere defending. I thought the entire point of these spec ops was to hit bases that weren't well defended. If the base isn't already well defended, one person screaming in chat is never enough to change that before you should hit. It will almost certainly be impossible for individuals to convince the zerg to break off their attack and go defend.

Uhm, no. Spec ops can be a lot of things. One of the bigger ones in PS1, when it wasn't going to empty undefended bases to take them, was making the stalemate fight move ahead. People zerging mindlessly to different parts of the base did nothing; you had a full galaxy fly around the base and do a low drop so nobody knew you were coming and got OS'ed. The push of an organized squad that they didn't see coming does crazy damage. You could push down to the tubes/gen before the other empire knew you were coming... the fight was over.

Basically, we need to be able to fly around bases, over water, etc. Restrictions and barriers that don't fit into the lore are nonsense in an MMOFPS sandbox game.

[SoNaR]

I agree you should be able to fly along the coast line over the water, but you should not be able to go too far out.

[Kaw]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Uhm, no. Spec ops can be a lot of things. One of the bigger ones in PS1, when it wasn't going to empty undefended bases to take them, was making the stalemate fight move ahead. People zerging mindlessly to different parts of the base did nothing; you had a full galaxy fly around the base and do a low drop so nobody knew you were coming and got OS'ed. The push of an organized squad that they didn't see coming does crazy damage. You could push down to the tubes/gen before the other empire knew you were coming... the fight was over.

Basically, we need to be able to fly around bases, over water, etc. Restrictions and barriers that don't fit into the lore are nonsense in an MMOFPS sandbox game.

And why can't you just take the scenic route and actually put thought into avoiding other players? Fly in through a hex that isn't in a massive fight and then loop around. Random people spotting you will have a difficult time knowing where you are going if you have some subtlety. The point of making an MMOFPS isn't so that you can effortlessly avoid contact with enemy players.

[kaffis]

Originally Posted by Hmr85

I think your entirely missing the point here. Yes your right your average player is going to be more interested in following there zerg and constantly being in the fight. Which appears to be the type of player that your are.

Thanks for the shot at me. I really appreciate it and it lends TONS of credence to your argument.

I happen to be a die-hard Sunderer driver, so I don't think you've got much grounds for getting on my case when it comes to me being a "zerg player." I also frequently lead my outfit in Planetside to defend vulnerable bases (lattice-wise) one step ahead of the zerg, so the incoming attackers wouldn't find an empty base.

So, yes -- I'm actually speaking from experience when I talk about the game of boredom attrition, just from a slightly different part of the game. The majority of people don't find it fun, so the defense barely ever happens.

Backhacking with long ocean overflies was easy-mode. Transporting with coordinated escort formations through contested/contestible territory is where the real challenge (and more reliable fun) lies. Can backhacking be strategically valuable? Yes. However, the difficulty of achieving it was always greatly inflated by the people who had the patience to do it.

And my argument is primarily that the stated design goals of this game, repeated time and time again, are that patience is not meant to be a defining factor of efficacy in this game. As such, I don't believe ocean-overflight missions are really in line with the design goals.

Disagree with the goals all you like -- your opinion and tastes in gameplay is plenty valid. But you've failed to provide a convincing argument that ocean overflight is a mechanic that will mesh well with the audience and playstyle the developers at Sony wish to target.

[Hmr85]

Originally Posted by kaffis

Thanks for the shot at me. I really appreciate it and it lends TONS of credence to your argument.

I happen to be a die-hard Sunderer driver, so I don't think you've got much grounds for getting on my case when it comes to me being a "zerg player." I also frequently lead my outfit in Planetside to defend vulnerable bases (lattice-wise) one step ahead of the zerg, so the incoming attackers wouldn't find an empty base.

So, yes -- I'm actually speaking from experience when I talk about the game of boredom attrition, just from a slightly different part of the game. The majority of people don't find it fun, so the defense barely ever happens.

Backhacking with long ocean overflies was easy-mode. Transporting with coordinated escort formations through contested/contestible territory is where the real challenge (and more reliable fun) lies. Can backhacking be strategically valuable? Yes. However, the difficulty of achieving it was always greatly inflated by the people who had the patience to do it.

And my argument is primarily that the stated design goals of this game, repeated time and time again, are that patience is not meant to be a defining factor of efficacy in this game. As such, I don't believe ocean-overflight missions are really in line with the design goals.

Disagree with the goals all you like -- your opinion and tastes in gameplay is plenty valid. But you've failed to provide a convincing argument that ocean overflight is a mechanic that will mesh well with the audience and playstyle the developers at Sony wish to target.

I never took a shot at you... From your argument I took that as your type of playstyle. A more of a up front and constantly in the action type of guy. My argument is plenty valid. Its a sandbox game as stated numerous times by Higby and co. and in being such their should be not be a boundary limiting me from be able skirt down the coast to avoid contact. If they want to change it to a more COD/BF style game they need to stop stating its a Sandbox MMOFPS with a open free roaming Environment.

[Zulthus]

Originally Posted by Kaw

And why can't you just take the scenic route and actually put thought into avoiding other players? Fly in through a hex that isn't in a massive fight and then loop around. Random people spotting you will have a difficult time knowing where you are going if you have some subtlety. The point of making an MMOFPS isn't so that you can effortlessly avoid contact with enemy players.

Because you should have the freedom to do as you please in a sandbox mmo. I don't know why you're having such a difficult time understanding that. If my outfit wants to take the extra time to avoid detection then we should be able to do that. I don't need you telling us what we can or can't do. It's as simple as that. Maybe you come from BF3, where the entire game dictates what you can do, but this isn't that game. It's PS2, sequel to Planetside, which didn't have ridiculously stupid boundaries as found in the game right now. I hope they are extended out a few hundred meters.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by kaffis

Disagree with the goals all you like -- your opinion and tastes in gameplay is plenty valid. But you've failed to provide a convincing argument that ocean overflight is a mechanic that will mesh well with the audience and playstyle the developers at Sony wish to target.

As has been stated a few times in the thread, we are not looking for real ocean overflight. Just a bit over the ocean will do. But restrictive out of bounds that start even before you cross the threshold of the waterline would be wrong.

Though, this outlook on flying over the ocean would have to be re-evaluated if we ever reached the ability to have intercontinental flight. I would hate to think that people would fight against it just for the purposes of funneling into meatgrinding. A true beach landing would be the magnum opus of an MMOFPS.

[Zulthus]

Originally Posted by kaffis

Disagree with the goals all you like -- your opinion and tastes in gameplay is plenty valid. But you've failed to provide a convincing argument that ocean overflight is a mechanic that will mesh well with the audience and playstyle the developers at Sony wish to target.

If people don't want to fly over the ocean, they don't have to. Let the people who want to do it. There, the mechanic meshes perfectly fine because it absolutely does not affect the people that don't want to fly over the ocean.

[Kaw]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Because you should have the freedom to do as you please in a sandbox mmo. I don't know why you're having such a difficult time understanding that. If my outfit wants to take the extra time to avoid detection then we should be able to do that. I don't need you telling us what we can or can't do. It's as simple as that. Maybe you come from BF3, where the entire game dictates what you can do, but this isn't that game. It's PS2, sequel to Planetside, which didn't have ridiculously stupid boundaries as found in the game right now. I hope they are extended out a few hundred meters.

In Planetside the element of suprise wasn't something attackers worked to aquire. It was a god given right that the attackers, if they so chose, could hit a base however they wanted and there was nothing the defenders could do to try and stop that. I think that was absolutely a flaw with the game that this is trying to fix. Sneak attacks should be difficult to execute. I'm very glad that gaining the element of surprise in PS2 will require more than flying around everybody.

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Because you should have the freedom to do as you please in a sandbox mmo.

This is silly. There have to be boundaries at some point. This system as proposed will put them in a place that, in my opinion, improves the overall quality of gameplay.

You will still have the freedom to preform sneaky attacks. This system will force outfits to work for it where Planetside made it possible to execute them easily.

[Stardouser]

Originally Posted by Kaw

This is silly. There have to be boundaries at some point. This system as proposed will put them in a place that, in my opinion, improves the overall quality of gameplay.

You will still have the freedom to preform sneaky attacks. This system will force outfits to work for it where Planetside made it possible to execute them easily.

Really? Higby made it sound like we WILL be able to fly out over the water at least a bit. We're only responding to just that shred of doubt that he threw in at last second.

Sounds like neither side has reason to be totally confident. But I can tell you right now that it's got nothing to do with easiness, I'm betting that even if PS1 vets are split 50.50(looks like more of you support being able to actually flank and sneak than to force the removal of stealth), restrictive out of bounds is definitely a BIG issue in other games and won't be stood for.

[Zulthus]

Originally Posted by Kaw

In Planetside the element of suprise wasn't something attackers worked to aquire. It was a god given right that the attackers, if they so chose, could hit a base however they wanted and there was nothing the defenders could do to try and stop that. I think that was absolutely a flaw with the game that this is trying to fix. Sneak attacks should be difficult to execute. I'm very glad that gaining the element of surprise in PS2 will require more than flying around everybody.

That was the BEAUTY of the game. Can I ask you, did you actually play Planetside?