Ground vehicle driving

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

A tank with only one crew member just wouldnt have a tank commander, would not have great situational awareness and would most likely be left in a fiery ruin by any infantry/flanking vehicle that stumbles on it.

So it should have third person to have some sort of situational awareness. Thank you.

(PS: if there's only one crew member, the driver is the tank commander, which it always has been in PS).

[Rozonus]

Originally Posted by Figment

So it should have third person to have some sort of situational awareness. Thank you.

No, you should trust your gunner and team mates to provide the situational awareness. Why would you think that most tank drivers are going to be solo?! It's an MMO for Christ's sake! If you want to drive your tank solo in PS2 then you're doing it wrong. If none of your Outfit members are free to help you, don't use an MBT. Planetside is all about teamwork, you know that.

I was flamed earlier in this thread for saying something which sounded like I wanted to have a level of realism in PS2, then you keep using examples about needing whole tank crews like real life. Well something we need to realise here is that it just isn't going to be like that in PS2. If you want command structure in your tank in PS2, let the guy in the gunner seat be your commander! He'll be the one with an easy 360 degree view of the surroundings. I know that won't work with random people who aren't on your TS server etc, but I don't ever intend to rely on random players in the gunner seats of any of my vehicles, so it won't bother me. If you don't have anyone to rely on, bad luck. Join an Outfit and use them to cover your blind spots!

Regardless of this debate, I think SOE need to keep the teamwork element as a primary objective when creating PS2, but as long as there are multiple ways to provide support for your team I don't mind if they take some out. Using tanks for example, seeing as squad mates can cover friendly tanks and protect them against enemies sneaking up on them, I don't mind losing 3PV.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by Figment

Thank you for pointing out infantry cannot demand blind angles on vehicles so they can at all times sneak up.

Sure as fuck we can, cause this isn't real life.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by WildVS

Just for my own education and since I don't play BF3, why is it OK to have 3rd person in that game and not here?

Doubt there is a good reason. I wish I could get Matt's reasoning on why this is an acceptable model for BF3 but not PS2. I can recall Smed pointing out he loved the vehicle based design of BF but yet this one point was not carried over?

Bf3, being a casual game, they set up the vehicles so they would be operated easily by a single person. It would appear that PS2 is taking a different approach to vehicle combat. And I might add I really love what PS2 is doing with vehicle combat.

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by WildVS

Just for my own education and since I don't play BF3, why is it OK to have 3rd person in that game and not here?

Doubt there is a good reason. I wish I could get Matt's reasoning on why this is an acceptable model for BF3 but not PS2. I can recall Smed pointing out he loved the vehicle based design of BF but yet this one point was not carried over?

Seriously?

You guys play the "It's in BF so it's shit!"-card all the time, yet suddenly a feature in BF suits your needs and it's okay?

Yeah, not hypocritical at all.

[Mechzz]

@WildVS
Could be a matter of timing. BF3 came out what, November 2011, when design decision for PS2 may have already been made. Higby may have made the call off of an older version of BF that he liked. BF:BC2 does not have 3pv on tanks iirc.

[CuddlyChud]

In BF3, third person turns with your turret, so you can use it to look around corners/over obstacles.

In regards to PS2, since the driver also controls the main gun, can't you just turn the turret to look around?

[captainkapautz]

Originally Posted by WildVS

I am asking a simple question. I don't play BF, I am asking why you think in BF3 it's there but not in PS2. The above reply seems a legit one. You getting confrontational again?

EDIT: and btw have you seen the video of the developer panel from FF last year? Smed referred to BF numerous times and in particular his fancy for the vehicle play model in it. So I asked, given that, why was one "feature" left out.

Sorry, played pretty much hardcore-only in BF3.

Disables most annoying features like 3D-spot, regening vehicles, no FF.
Also disables 3PV for vehicles.

I gotta be honest, if there is one feature from BF3 that I despise, that I have seen in PS2 then it's hands down 3D-spot.

I just hope it doesn't work like BF3s spotting, and if it does, it isn't as easily abused.

P.S.: I'm always confrontational if people act like hypocrits.

[IMMentat]

Originally Posted by WildVS

Simple Punisher jammer nades and VS Lancer. (props to BobbyShaftoe).

Thank you for reminding me how fab those weapons were in the hands of an experienced player.
The Punisher had slower reload than the Thumper nade launchers 6 shot drum-magazine rate of fire but it was a consistent threat due to the lack of a long pause every 6 shots, plus the rightclick for bullets was handy for backup purposes.
I have a feeling BobbyShaftoe was a Werner player, I even squee'd for a sec when I thought my charname popped up in a squad, but I think it was someone with a similar structure to the name, not even 720p was enough for me to read it clearly.

If nothing else this forum been a fab nostalgia trip recently.


Back on subject, they seem to have made driver-gunner tanks because of PS1 proving that pure driving was unapreciated by many new/casual players and other games have shown driver-gunner combo's function well enough.

3rd person ground vehicles, so far, are still in-game. So until we can confirm its been removed, most of the discussion is theoretical, 3PV has pro's and cons.

In RL the driver is reliant on a commander for a lot of the situational awareness, as is the gunner and loader (and co-driver?).
Thats 4-5 people per fighting vehicle.
All modern games cut these roles down to 1-2 players. The driver provides the main Boom and drives around in search of targets, the 2nd person protects the tank and spots/nullifies less obvious threats.

I will state again that I think a late-cert option to let the 2nd person use a bigger gun would be a nice addition to the tank driving certifications but ultimatley I have no problem with the current state of design.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Bf3, being a casual game, they set up the vehicles so they would be operated easily by a single person. It would appear that PS2 is taking a different approach to vehicle combat. And I might add I really love what PS2 is doing with vehicle combat.

Yes, we're taking the realistic approach: we have jetpacks and lazorz! In fact, we have more one player focus units than PS1 as drivers have become gunners. And the action moves faster, shorter TTKs, less waiting around, less long term dedication to completing a fight even if you're just on guard duty.




FFS man, PS2 is going to be an extremely casual game especially in comparison to PS1!

Originally Posted by captainkapautz

Sure as fuck we can, cause this isn't real life.

Luckily, 3rd person is also not real life, but a substitute for real life perifeal vision and to compensate for the missing link between physical movement and the motion as experienced by your inner-ear (meaning you can actually see what accelerations are happening to your aircraft or ground vehicle as you do not experience it physically and don't get motion sick from the camera shake in the process).

Indeed, good thing it's not reality. Just hope that when you're hypocritical, you don't start talking to yourself. You might get confrontational.

[Sledgecrushr]

Originally Posted by Figment

Yes, we're taking the realistic approach: we have jetpacks and lazorz!




FFS man, PS2 is going to be an extremely casual game especially in comparison to PS1!

Where did I say "realistic"? What I was saying that it looks like PS2 is going for a more team oriented approach than what some other fps games are doing.

[Figment]

Okay here we go again.

Originally Posted by Rozonus

No, you should trust your gunner and team mates to provide the situational awareness.

Just a shame they don't get to have situational awareness either.

Why would you think that most tank drivers are going to be solo?! It's an MMO for Christ's sake! If you want to drive your tank solo in PS2 then you're doing it wrong. If none of your Outfit members are free to help you, don't use an MBT. Planetside is all about teamwork, you know that.

Because two MBTs beat one MBT. That's a different topic though and you can find over 50 pages of it in the Gunner-Driver debates.

I was flamed earlier in this thread for saying something which sounded like I wanted to have a level of realism in PS2, then you keep using examples about needing whole tank crews like real life.

Actually, I simply stated on several occassions and in several ways that these roles are still there and for good reason to (you can't properly function otherwise), just combined among less crew members than in real life.

Which means they have to be able to live up to these roles and not hindered due to some arbitrary limitation that has nothing to do with vehicle gameplay and everything to do with a bunch of people who can't or don't want to handle a foe that might learn where they are and don't want to give them a fighting chance to deal with flanking or backstab attacks in a game where there will be backstabs and flanking maneuvres constantly and TTKs are short.

Why you want to hurt vehicle gameplay, I don't know though. I still haven't heard any answer to that.

Well something we need to realise here is that it just isn't going to be like that in PS2. If you want command structure in your tank in PS2, let the guy in the gunner seat be your commander! He'll be the one with an easy 360 degree view of the surroundings.

For one, he won't have an easy 360 view if he has to rotate his turret for viewing behind him. That just makes him completely inept at dealing with either threat, because as long as he is turning his turret around, scouting for other targets or that other thing that might be shooting to see if it's the more important target, he can't fire and all that time they're taking damage. That's highly inefficient and with the short TTKs on vehicles that we've seen, is going to make them something else:


Dead.


Second, in PS2... the actual main gunner (the one who controls the turret if it's not the Magrider)... is the driver...

Oh... Hmm. Maybe you should have checked that.

I know that won't work with random people who aren't on your TS server etc, but I don't ever intend to rely on random players in the gunner seats of any of my vehicles, so it won't bother me. If you don't have anyone to rely on, bad luck. Join an Outfit and use them to cover your blind spots!

You just make sure all your outfit buddies are always online and in your area watching your back!

Who's watching the watchmen though? You're in front of them in tunnelvision mode, puking over your keyboard from motion sickness.

Regardless of this debate, I think SOE need to keep the teamwork element as a primary objective when creating PS2, but as long as there are multiple ways to provide support for your team I don't mind if they take some out. Using tanks for example, seeing as squad mates can cover friendly tanks and protect them against enemies sneaking up on them, I don't mind losing 3PV.

Seeing as squadmates can fire for you, why bother bringing a gun?

Bad logic is bad.

[Figment]

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Where did I say "realistic"? What I was saying that it looks like PS2 is going for a more team oriented approach than what some other fps games are doing.

Already edited the other post.


But PS2 does not look very team oriented to me, certainly not more team oriented than PS1. If you can drive and gun a MBT with one player in PS2, then by definition MBTs became more attuned with individual play.

(And considering the driver can switch seats inside the vehicle if we're to believe the night ops video, I'd say this is more than an impression.)

[captainkapautz]

You know, your arguement seems less and less about why 3PV would be needed for reasons like a few people might get motionsick and more and more about why 3PV wold be needed so you can fuck shit up alone in your tank.

Which I sure as fuck hope isn't the direction PS2 is going.

[MrBloodworth]

Here is why its Driver = Gunner.

Battlefield does it, and it also removes the need to rely on others.

As to Third person view, I support the addition.