The Big HA Arguement! - Page 3

Incompetent · 2004-01-22, 03:37 AM

Noone says the game is perfect except for HA, it's just that HA is the most unbalanced thing in it as of now. Seriously, would anyone here object if the Flail was made into an actual artillery piece instead of a deployable god? What about a reaver rocket nerf? (non-pilots only damnit.) Probably not, the Jack is just the one you have to deal with the most, and more importantly, it is IMPOSSIBLE to get away from it. Simply because when push comes to shove, you cannot cram 4 or 5 flails into the CC, and thats the only place where it really matters.

Edit: as far as AI maxes go, they lack mobility and autonomy, making them predictable and vulnerable, unlike a jack which is only predictable because so many of the users are morons.

Veteran · 2004-01-22, 06:02 AM

It's true. Control of the courtyard and inside the base makes or breaks any offensive, despite the activity in the surrounding terrain.

They need to implement outdoors activities that are as important as what happens inside the base.

Vick · 2004-01-22, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by BadAsh

Let's switch this up a little to humor my original statements...

Your Sweeper vs. my HA = HA probably a win but no guarantee
Your Sweeper vs. my Reaver = Reaver...
Your Sweeper vs. my Tank = Tank...
Your Sweeper vs. my AI MAX = AI MAX... see where this is going?

The thing that separates Planet Side from pure "death match" style FPS games is the tactical element. In PS the recipe for victory is having the right certifications, the right gear, and being in the right place.

The moral of the story (and my point) is that if you want to go into bases and own CQB then you better cert and gear up for the mission... Rexo/HA/SA/AI MAX or something along those lines would serve you well... trying to get by with MA won't cut it.

Likewise if you want to own outside you better get some aircraft or armored vehicle certifications. Running around on foot won't cut it.

Here is where my "less skill" comparison comes in.... With HA there are no "free kills" where you find you are facing an opponent who CAN'T fight back. With vehicles this happens all the time. How many times have you been in a Reaver or armored ground vehicle and happened across enemy infantry or snipers? See what I mean now? With almost 0 skill and 0 effort you rack up a "free kill" against an opponent who can do little more than plink at you before dying.

... Ok, so if you put a reaver next to some snipers with no anti-air support it will be nothing special, but it is not like shitty players fly around finding anipers with no air support all the time. But you do see lots of newbs running forward holding leftmouse and getting a kill or three.

Anyway, why do you continue to compare vehicles and HA weapons? Compare it to MA and SA.

Now HA on the other hand... everyone you kill is a viable threat. No? Then why your sweeper challenge... surely you believe you have a chance?

What? I dont understand this... I said: "If you still think I am some pilot newb, I would like to see you kill me 1vs1."

Why did I say this? Because you said pilots and MAXs are skilless shitty players who whine because they cannot kill things on the ground. Which is not true at all, if anything it is non JH users whining about how it owns them so much.

But my offer still stands, if you believe what you said I will be happy to prove you wrong.

Originally Posted by Incompetent

Edit: as far as AI maxes go, they lack mobility and autonomy, making them predictable and vulnerable, unlike a jack which is only predictable because so many of the users are morons.

Agreed, that is why MAXs are so well balanced to other weapons in the game.

BadAsh · 2004-01-22, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Vick

What? I dont understand this... I said: "If you still think I am some pilot newb, I would like to see you kill me 1vs1."

Well it would make sense to you if we consider your full original quote �PS: If you still think I am some whining pilot newb, I would like to fucking see you fight me, 1vs1, me with my sweeper�. Now, recall the context that quote was uttered in. You just joined the bandwagon of the argument that HA is overpowered so much so that any n00b can spam away with HA and get a kill. Yet, you boast a challenge to take on a guy with HA with your MA. Clearly you believe you can win, so clearly you believe that HA is not some unbeatable doomsday weapon as your earlier claims would suggest.

As for comparing vehicles to weapons� think of it as comparing equipment to equipment and you will see my point. To gain victory in Planetside several things have to come together. One of the most important is equipment match ups. For example: Let�s say Player 1 sporting Agile armor and a Suppressor takes on Player 2 suited up in an AI MAX. I�m not really a gambling man, but my cash would be on Player 2 if a wager was on. Making the claim that this is an invalid comparison would apply ONLY if this match up were not possible in the game.

With your certification and equipment load outs you define your role in the game. People who certify in heavy infantry and load out with HA should have an advantage over people who certed in other areas. Is this advantage so overbearing that it can�t be overcome with a lesser weapon? The answer is a definitive �NO� and from your original challenge quote, it�s obvious you know this to be true as well.

To all those still crying about HA� quit being dumbasses. You are engaging an enemy with a lesser weapon or equipment load out� what did you think might happen? It�s exactly like claiming Tanks are too powerful because you keep getting owned in your Basilisk. �I fired first, but he just turned around and blasted me with his n00b spam weapon. B.S!!! Tanks should be removed from the game!�

Incompetent · 2004-01-22, 10:43 PM

When a skeeter pilot bails on a tower roof he doesn't magically morph into a tank. A tank cannot be purchased at an AMS. A tank cannot follow you inside. A tank cannot open a door. A tank has a five minute timer. A tank requires teamwork (or skill, if your a lightning guy) to operate. A tank cannot surge and jump to warp all over your screen. A tank is not a fucking infantry weapon, stop with the retarded comparisons.

For example: Let�s say Player 1 sporting Agile armor and a Suppressor takes on Player 2 suited up in an AI MAX

Player 1 can simply go through a locked door and laugh histerically because player 2 can't do shit until someone else opens it for him, then player 1 can repair/heal himself, hack a term (if it's a third empires base of course) or make a mad dash to the vehicle bay among other things.

MAXes, when used outside of zergs, can also foster tactics and teamwork, the MAX relies on his buddies to keep him in fighting condition, get him through doors and to cover him from AV and deci fire with massed rifle fire, in return the supporting friendly infantry with heavy firepower against soft targets. It's a symbiotic relationship, unlike HA. Stop comparing them. HA defeats all other infantry portable weapons in most situations, with surgile, it beats them in all situations. There is no effective counter which can face it in a gen, hack or spawn room, other then a max, which are walking medkit containers without supporting inf, which you can conviently slaughter at will.

Vick · 2004-01-22, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by BadAsh

Well it would make sense to you if we consider your full original quote �PS: If you still think I am some whining pilot newb, I would like to fucking see you fight me, 1vs1, me with my sweeper�. Now, recall the context that quote was uttered in. You just joined the bandwagon of the argument that HA is overpowered so much so that any n00b can spam away with HA and get a kill. Yet, you boast a challenge to take on a guy with HA with your MA. Clearly you believe you can win, so clearly you believe that HA is not some unbeatable doomsday weapon as your earlier claims would suggest.

Your still making stupid comparisons, I am talking about how HA weapons can stand in for skill. I am not whining about how HA ownz all, I never did. I just think they are lame, spammy weapons. I can kill most people I take on, if they have HA or not, including you.

Anyway, Incomps post is good too, I agree completly with him.

BadAsh · 2004-01-23, 01:42 AM

Incompetent... Vick... I've run out of ways to explain this... so let's just make the simple weapon comparisons... we will ignore the MAX, vehicular, and distance aspects of the game� we will also ignore such unbalancing factors such as the numbers of players in each empire in a specific area at a given time and assume all is even� so let�s pretend the ONLY hazard in the game is HA.

Standard Assault gets you the use of the Suppressor and all of the Pistols and costs 0 certification points.

Medium Assault gets you the use of the Cycler, Gauss, Pulsar, Punisher, and Sweeper and costs 2 certification points.

Heavy Assault gets you the use of the Mini Chain Gun, Jack Hammer, and Lasher and costs 4 certification points and has a prerequisite of Medium Assault. If you (like most HA users) are only getting MA to fill the requirement then the true cost of HA is 6 certification points to achieve your HA goal.

All things even and in the optimum HA environment of CQB then HA would be the most powerful followed by MA and then by Standard. Is HA guaranteed a win every time? Nope. So even in this ideal environment HA is advantageous, but not supreme.

But now let�s snap out of our utopian �ideal� circumstances, wake up from pretend land, and get back to Planet Side� HA is useless in most situations because there are these things called vehicles and MAX units. Also rarely are you fighting 1 opponent so if you have HA and are facing several MA players you might take down 2-3 before you die. This is hardly cataclysmic. Considering you spent 3x the certification points for the meager advantage, I�d say you earned the right to have an advantage in that limited situation. Change the situation a little and add a simple factor like distance into the equation and now suddenly the low certification cost weapons are actually superior.

If HA gave you an advantage at any range; and gave you the ability to own the sky; and own anything that walked, rolled, or hovered on the ground� THEN I�d agree that HA is overpowered and somehow ruined the cosmic balance of the universe. PS is a game of certification and equipment management dictated by the situations YOU get yourself into.

CSD (common sense dictates) here� if you are infantry and want to kill a MAX you better cert in AV or SA and have those weapons equipped to have a chance. Likewise if you want to fight against Heavy Infantry you better pack a weapon that has some kick otherwise your opponent will have the advantage. Now, if you were somehow unable to pick the same certifications and equipment� THEN you would have a legitimate gripe. But, you made other choices didn�t you? Time to man up and deal with the strengths and weaknesses of the character build YOU picked. Anyone who constantly takes on HA Heavy Infantry with lesser and cheaper weapons has issues� HA is not your problem� the inability to overcome such a simple obstacle is where the trouble is.

Originally Posted by Incompetent

Player 1 can simply go through a locked door and laugh histerically because player 2 can't do shit until someone else opens it for him, then player 1 can repair/heal himself, hack a term (if it's a third empires base of course) or make a mad dash to the vehicle bay among other things.

Originally Posted by Vick

Anyway, Incomps post is good too, I agree completly with him.

Ok, see the 2 quotes above? See how you 2 are in perfect agreement? Note how Incompetent quickly realizes that "Player 1" the suppressor player has no chance against the MAX unit... so he becomes crafty and suggests other means of defeating his opponemt including using barriers (locked door) to facilitate healing/repair, changing equipment to fit your current need (hacking the terminal), and even making a dash to a vehicle terminal...

So why is it that when I bring up using a vehicle to take out a foe it's an invalid "retatded comparison" and not a legitimate course of action... yet, when you 2 think of it it's suddenly valid and viable counter option?

So how about this... then next time you get owned my HA... stop and think... should I continue charging in with a lesser weapon or should I equip myself for the situation as needed and perhaps get something more effective to fight with like a MAX, Vehicle, the cloaker/boomer combo, or even get your own HA?

Vick- Again with your challenge huh? What is that going to prove? Obviously you don't believe your own argument about HA being over powered or you would not be convinced you could beat a player you know nothing about with your MA Sweeper. If anything you are making an argument that the Sweeper is over powered becuase you can always kill anyone using HA with it... the Sweeper is 2 certs and HA is 4 with a 2 cert prerequisite... So are you advocating a Sweeper nerf or a HA buff?

infinite loop · 2004-01-23, 12:09 PM

It's threads like these that make me wonder why I continue to throw my head against the wall in HA debates. But I can't stand seeing this impeccable logic from BadAsh get discounted by people who can't seem to grasp the big picture. I mean, Christ, it's like playing cards with my brother's kids or something.

Seriously guys, I'm so sick of hearing that the JH is overpowered, because nothing else can beat it in the CC. First of all, there are ways to take down a group of JH users in a confined space. But you know what? JH is supposed to be the most powerful cqc weapon in the game. It sacrifices range to do this. It sure as hell better fucking own in the CC. The MCG and Lasher will dominate in ANY battle over 15m, and have a good chance at battles that are 5-10m. But you get under 5m to a JH, and you SHOULD die, period. You can't keep arguing balance in one piece of the game. It is OVERALL balance that is the concern, not just in the CC. Because the CC is not the only place that matters. Yeah, the CC may be a very important part, but you have the chance to prevent them from getting there. The battles for a base take place outside, in the courtyard, in the air above, and then inside the base. In each of those places, a JH user is at a disadvantage to all other weapons.

People like to say that the JH owns all indoors, but that just isn't true. In the hallways and medium to large-sized rooms, any MA or HA has an advantage over the JH. The JH has to get close to be effective, and if you see a JH user coming, you should be able to take them down before they get to you. If you can't, then you deserve to die. This game is about checks and balances of certs, situational awareness and the ability to adapt. IMHO, there is no aspect of this game that is even marginally overpowered. Like Ash said, if you keep running into the same situation and dying, maybe you need a different approach.

Incompetent · 2004-01-23, 02:53 PM

It is OVERALL balance that is the concern, not just in the CC.

Who just stands there at 15m with a jack

The MCG and Lasher will dominate in ANY battle over 15m, and have a good chance at battles that are 5-10m.

Lets see, best tank, best buggy, only av worth the certs, best long range rifle, best HA, better maxes in all 3 catagories (sparrow is better at what it's meant for, even if the burster is better all purpose), yeah, overall really balanced against our best mid/short range rifle.

if you see a JH user coming, you should be able to take them down before they get to you.

Maybe if he didn't warp all over my screen because he's in surgile I could.

including using barriers (locked door) to facilitate healing/repair, changing equipment to fit your current need (hacking the terminal), and even making a dash to a vehicle terminal...

My arguement was that a max couldn't do any of these, he has to sacrifice flexibility, while the surgile HA sacrifices nothing.

Change the situation a little and add a simple factor like distance into the equation and now suddenly the low certification cost weapons are actually superior.

Neg, surge, jump and strafe a little and you'll be at point blank with marginal damage because your warping all over the other guys screen, and you don't have to worry about COF (Lash does a little bit, MCG puts out enough rounds it doesn't matter) while everyone else does.

So how about this... then next time you get owned my HA... stop and think... should I continue charging in with a lesser weapon or should I equip myself for the situation as needed and perhaps get something more effective to fight with like a MAX, Vehicle, the cloaker/boomer combo.

Surgile can easily kill the maxes supporting inf and flee, vehicles do not fit in buildings. I doubt he will stand still when i ask him.

Also rarely are you fighting 1 opponent so if you have HA and are facing several MA players you might take down 2-3 before you die. This is hardly cataclysmic. Considering you spent 3x the certification points for the meager advantage, I�d say you earned the right to have an advantage in that limited situation.

HA can bring friends too, 3x5 is 15 not six (MA + Rexo, the armor that supposedly meant for infantry combat, which surgile HAs can happily ignore but rifles effectively requires because you must stay stationary to have a respecable COF)

Because the CC is not the only place that matters. Yeah, the CC may be a very important part, but you have the chance to prevent them from getting there.

You cannot effectively gain ground without fighting in CC.

I don't really care if HA gets a damage nerf, but something in the surgile HA build needs to be hit with the nerf bat, hard. A surge nerf would help restore the balance, pre-req that your in rexo would too, locking all infantry speeds to the speed of rexo wouldn't be my choice but it would do, but they either need to take away the ability to close quickly or the ability to kill quickly, then it will be balanced.

Vick · 2004-01-23, 03:52 PM

Ok BadAsh, you win at life.

Please nerf the sweeper, HA is fine.

Queensidecastle · 2004-01-23, 03:59 PM

I think the main disparity here is that HA is clearly being delt with inconsistantly. Sony has shown they are commited to balance on a per item basis. For example, the Devs spent a great deal of time tweaking each empire tank so ther overall they would be even but maintain some indiviual differences.

This is not so with Heavy assault. The got the differences right, but got the balance of those differences wrong. So the whole "Empires as a whole are balanced" argument doesnt wash when already per item balance is treated very seriously and in the game for Tanks, Medium assault, MAXs (for the most part. They are going to buff the TR MAXs eventually) and even attempted assault buggies.

Are Devs perfect and get it all right? of course not. There are still some glaring holes despite the attempts such as the Vanguard and Magrider are vastly superior to the Prowler and the Thresher and Marauder are still shit compared to the Enforcer but I think overall they did a good job considering scope and time constraints.

Heavy assault is a different matter entirely. I agree with the fact that the Jackhammer should have an edge indoors but one shot kills arent just an edge, its just on a different plane entirely to other Heavy assault. The range argument is worthless because you can just keep your Gauss out untill you get within range for your Jackhammer. Since the Devs have shown they they are commited to Catagorical balance issues It begs these questions:

Why doesnt the MCG have a secondary mode that doubles its fire rate or something of that nature?

Why doesnt the Lasher have a secondary mode that increases its Orb size, or strength, or Lash?

The argument that the MCG and Lasher have "built in modes" doesnt fly either because they still cannot be selectivly chosen to fit combat conditions, nor do they provide burst damage for higher TTK or boost the base properties of the weapon in any way. So now I modify my questions:

Why does the MCG not have a "built in Special mode" that the user can use selectivly?

Why does the Lasher not have a "built in Special mode" that the user can use selectivly?

If the Jackhammer was the weakest HA and was given a secondary mode to compensate then I really wouldnt care, but that is not the case. It is already the best heavy assault. So to sum up:

1)The Jackhammer is the best heavy assault with its weakness (range) being totally filled by the Gauss (Prereq cert) - This combination has no weaknesses. The other 2 Empire combinations are the same at distance and weaker in the Heavy assault range. Fine I can deal with that. But this is where it starts to piss people off:

2)The jackhammer has a secondary mode that increases its base effect dramatically and even capable of a one shot kill.

3)Other heavy assault do not get secondary modes that increase thier base effects.

So what you are left with is completely and totally unballanced Heavy assault. I would like to see a Dev try to defend these inconsistancies given thier track record of commitments to catagorical balance. I would like to see this disparity shored up to an acceptable level or have an official response that Heavy assault is a catagory that the Devs do not want to be in balance

Mudflap · 2004-01-23, 05:42 PM

Simply because the devs balanced one vehicle doesn't mean that they are dedicated to equality on a per item basis.

Obviously the TR Dual Cycler Max is absolute crap compared to either of the other empire's AI MAXes. Why? Why oh why?!? Why is there such intolerable disparity in their abilities?

Well, it would probably be because the Pounder has AI abilities greater than most other empire's AV MAXes. This is an overall balance, not per item.....clearly. The tanks are another issue, because they are the spearhead of any vehicular advance. They need to be equal moreso than anything else.

As for people whining that NC is overpowered overall, they may be right, but I don't feel that all their arguments are valid.

Stop whining about the damn Pheonix. It has lower damage over time than either of the other empire's weapons, unless you go to secondary fire mode, where it actually probably equals them, but has the accuracy of a decimator.

The anti-JH sentiment isn't even consistent. One person says that the NC has the best tank, the next person says that the devs went to great lengths to make them equal. The truth is, the Vanguard is the best tank......for most people. The Mag is a great tank though, but I hate the Prowler myself, and think it needs major a little lovin'.

Each empire has its strengths and weaknesses, and if you can't find them for your empire, then perhaps your style of play doesn't match your empire, or maybe you need therapy.

VS have awesome MAXes. In a normal base defense situation, you're fairly safe on the wall, but when the VS show up, they will take you out.

TR can defend a base or tower hallway WAY better than any other empire

NC have the best tank and can hit some stuff behind walls.

Learn to use your empire's strenghts. If an NC surgile goon is coming, I typically kneel and take him out. Accurate fire is worthwhile. Besides, see what happens when a surgile faces an AI Max.

If you're in a max, getting hit by Pheonix fire, get to cover, think about getting an infiltrator cert to counter them. There's always a away, and whining about it, especially in an infantile fashion, just shows lack of skill and insight.

I have a couple Vanu characters, and they rock. If the NC were so uber, then why don't they own your home continents?

Madcow · 2004-01-23, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Mudflap

Well, it would probably be because the Pounder has AI abilities greater than most other empire's AV MAXes.

Bwahahahahaha!

Originally Posted by Mudflap

If you're in a max, getting hit by Pheonix fire, get to cover, think about getting an infiltrator cert to counter them

Funny enough, I started my Vanu char with the Uni-MAX cert (only empire that it's truly worthwhile imho) and because of that I stalk Phoenix users mercilessly with my infil suit. I got pounded in so many scenarios with that freaking missile when I was in my MAX suit, and always got torqued that it seems like so few infils actually take the time to hunt those bastards. The Phoenix is a very distinctive blip on the HUD which basically gives away the location of the shooter to anybody who bothers to remotely pay attention. If you get into a field of multiple Phoenix users and have melee booster you can walk through just about all of them if you're careful. The Phoenix is a great weapon when used properly, but it definitely has it's weak points. I think AV is balanced against each other for the most part (even the Lancer despite the fact that nobody certs it) even if they really are useless as AV. Of course, the Phoenix is the one I'm jealous of 'cause it's fun to use.

flypengy · 2004-01-23, 06:30 PM

This argument is a joke. Not one of you has even quoted actual numbers and few of you are talking about the actual situation that each HA dominates. Sporkfire has said that the JH is meant to be the most powerful HA, it's NC and NC = power in few shots. You can't make a lasher as powerful as a JH. Even lasher 2.0 was dominated by the JH in close quarters. Any attempts to do so will make the lasher too powerful!

I honestly think that most of you would prefer everyone has the exact same weapons with no empire specific vehicles. Go play another game if that is what you want, constantly bitching because you want your lasher or mcg to dominate a JH a 5m is just stupid.

Queensidecastle · 2004-01-23, 07:03 PM

Sporkfire has said that the JH is meant to be the most powerful HA

I would like to see sources or some evidence of this and not some dumb shit about how the JH should be better indoors (I think most people are fine that shotguns are better indoors). We already covered that better does not equal the difference between 3-4 seconds to kill a trooper with an MCG or Lasher and the instakill of JH secondary. That isnt just "better", its bullshit. Also I havent seen any comments from devs or anyone else that has an acceptible explination as to why JH has a secondary and no other HA has a secondary