Leaning

[Raymac]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

Well yeah, but you don't see what's happening 24/7 like you can with third person. So it's definitely better already. I think even exposing yourself for a second is an improvement because you aren't invulnerable like you are when you wallhump.

Leaning could be balanced to where it takes a second or two to get into position, I don't know. Put your hand on the wall and hold your gun with one hand, making your CoF bloom like mad. Then it takes another two seconds to get out of position. I think that'd make it so people wouldn't use it for camping as much.

I think the only way to make it different from 3rd person now is to do some sort of contrived mechanic to slow down the time to use lean as you suggest, but even that almost feels like a solution thats looking for a problem.

Even with that mechanic, you would need a delay on poking your head back in because it takes a hell of alot less time to let go of the lean button than it does to locate a target that is leaning, aim correctly, and then click to fire. That doesn't make you very vulnerable except that the enemy would know for certain that someone is around the corner instead of just assuming there is.

It just feels like the results are too similar to 3rd person wall humping, and I just think strafing around the corner to look is more fair and less prone to abuse.

[Zulthus]

Yeah, I'm just basing off of if lean was actually being implemented. But tbh, I'd rather keep both third-person and lean out.

[Sirisian]

I don't get it. So how is leaning and exposing yourself to the enemy similar to 3rd person? The alternative of leaning is just moving so you can see then moving back quickly. As long as I can see them when they see me it's fine. I'll take a grenade or punisher and shoot it at them. We both saw each other and can react so it's fair.

[Erendil]

Originally Posted by Raymac

I think the only way to make it different from 3rd person now is to do some sort of contrived mechanic to slow down the time to use lean as you suggest, but even that almost feels like a solution thats looking for a problem.

Even with that mechanic, you would need a delay on poking your head back in because it takes a hell of alot less time to let go of the lean button than it does to locate a target that is leaning, aim correctly, and then click to fire. That doesn't make you very vulnerable except that the enemy would know for certain that someone is around the corner instead of just assuming there is.

It just feels like the results are too similar to 3rd person wall humping, and I just think strafing around the corner to look is more fair and less prone to abuse.

The results are not that similar to 3rdPV camping, not by a long shot. When using 3rdPV, not only are you 100% hidden from view and 100% invulnerable to direct fire, but you also get a constant view of the area in front of you for as long as you want so you'll get instantaneous updates at all times on all enemy positions and movements within your FoV. You can take all the time you need to pinpoint and track every enemy in front of you that is not completely hidden from your expanded birds-eye camera view.

But with a properly implemented lean, not only are you in direct sight of the enemy, but you are exposing your head and shoulders to direct enemy fire for every second you're leaning. You don't get the increased FoV that an elevated 3rdPV camera gives you, and if you use it just to take a quick peek, you only get a quick snapshot in time of the area in front of you.

That tiny window in time makes it quite difficult to spot and locate every single enemy within view much less tell if they've spotted you or give you any more than a general idea of where they are headed. And that's assuming they don't decide to stop or changes directions after you duck back around the corner. Plus, If you want a better idea of where they're going, you have to keep your head stuck out, which gives away your position and exposes you to enemy fire for the whole duration.

IMO a properly implemented lean would work something like this: It takes about 1/2-3/4 sec to stick your head out, and a similar amount of time to duck back around the corner. While leaning your head and 1/4 of your torso become exposed to enemy fire, and it takes a moment for your CoF to settle before you can take an accurate shot so you can't peek/shoot/duck back around the corner in one quick movement.

So at a mimimum you be be exposing yourself to 1.5 - 2 secs worth enemy fire, which is more than enough time to get killed if the enemy has even a rough idea where you're hiding.

In addition, PS2 has many features that will make it less effective than a lean would've been in PS1, and/or less effective than the lean you might've experienced in other games. They are:

1. Iron Sights, making weapons more accurate than PS1
2. Increased Weapon Lethality, allowing you to kill a leaner before he can duck back behind cover
3. Headshots, the bane of leaners everywhere
4. Real-time lighting and shadows, which could give you away if there's a light source behind/beside you. Ever seen the ending airport scene in the movie Heat?
5. Sprint, Allowing you to quickly move from cover to cover and close the distance on or flank a camping opponent unseen when they're not leaning
6. VEHICLES, which eat stationary softies for breakfast

The above features will all serve to keep the power of leaning in check, either by counteracting the benefits of a lean feature (#1-4), or by helping to flush out an opponent whom you feel is using lean a little too much for your tastes (#5 and 6).

[Kouza]

Originally Posted by Zulthus

It's a hell of a step foward from third person though.

When Armstrong hit the moon did he say that one big step for mankind? Why not make a giant leap? noob... Leaning, will lead to some sort of exploit.

[Zulthus]

Originally Posted by Kouza

When Armstrong hit the moon did he say that one big step for mankind? Why not make a giant leap? noob... Leaning, will lead to some sort of exploit.

First off, what the hell are you talking about? Second, why am I a noob? Third, give me some possible exploits there could be to leaning to back up your statement.

[exLupo]

Originally Posted by Tatwi

That's your problem.

Planetside is a game. Games are fun. In a game, fun mechanics are more important than simulated realism. It's a game, it can never be real, but can be fun.

I really need to macro this shit.

Surrealism: Rez (Completely different from meatspace)
Non-simulation realism: PlanetSide (Grounded in meatspace with speculated elements)
Simulation realism: ARMA (An attempt to bring gaming as close to meatspace as possible)

You can ask for realism without asking for simulations. As long as you're using guns, you're asking for some level of realism. If you're completely anti-realism, PlanetSide is not for you.

@Erendil - you do a good job of selling lean. My concerns really just amounted to "3pv in PS1 is a trash mechanic" and your version makes the leaner really vulnerable. Still not sure I want it (probably not from a gameplay streamlining perspective) but my active not-want is smaller.

[SavageB]

Originally Posted by Kouza

When Armstrong hit the moon did he say that one big step for mankind? Why not make a giant leap? noob... Leaning, will lead to some sort of exploit.

There are plenty of exploits in a lot of games....its called patching it..

[Hamma]

While leaning is cool I've only seen it in a few games. If the plan is to make PlanetSide 2 more fast paced I really don't think something like leaning around corners is a good fit.

[BorisBlade]

Originally Posted by basti

So, we now have leaning corner campers instead of 3rd person corner campers?
HELL NO!
No to guys camping everywhere instead of pushing, period.

Thats not the same thing at all man. Havin said that i honestly dont care about leaning. Third person means they can see you without any risk to themselves and you have no idea they are there and know you are comin. A lean is just a variant on strafing out enough to see and fire then strafin back. To see whats goin on or to shoot you have to put yourself at risk with a lean. With third person you can see just fine and stay safely hidden.

Again i dont care either way, it doesnt add much really. Plus we have enough buttons to worry about, dont really need anymore. And if you arent adding prone, then you dont need this. And as others have said, prone is perfectly fine, the bad implementation in several games (dolphin diving etc) are the problem, not the prone position itself.

Also, there is no camping in PS, sorry to burst your bubble. Its defending, and it should be done. If people arent ever defending or as you call it camping, then they are playing wrong.

[FriendlyFire]

Take out 3rdPPV, don't put in lean, and let the Lasher lash those camping newbs.