Resource situation for losing faction

[Arcticus]

So the game starts up and the three factions start going for the initial "homesteading" land grab. At first they have minimal resources but, as the game progresses and each faction grabs the closest territory, individuals start seeing resources coming in and available for use for bigger vehicles and such.

After a while, individuals, specially infantry, see that they are building up resources, maybe even maxing out. There's even talk about whether the resource system is too loose.

Then, a few weeks later, whether through strategical, diplomatic or numerical inferiority, or just happenstance, one of my enemy factions starts loosing territory.

After a while, due to territorial loss, the resource income does not meet their defensive demands. A point is reached where fewer and fewer aircraft and tanks get built.

I agree that they deserve this; with an equal population they lost battles.

But gameplay wise, once they've been beaten back and own only a few hexes, how can they ever make a comeback? Yes, they are invulnerable from being kicked totally out the continent. But where are they to gather the resources to make a comeback? If the devs then grant additional resources for being a loser, doesn't that destroy the territorial imperative of the game.

The first reaction is to say that the catch-22 will be dealt with in beta. But what are YOUR ideas on how they make a comeback for the loser possible without hexing the hexes?

If I missed a thread regarding this particular possible resource issue, please give me a link.

[GreatMazinkaise]

The third empire always comes in to solve problems like these... the dominating faction will start going after them and the underdogs can come in and claim some territory with boots.

[Meriv]

Players density, think as this with bigger the area you are covering because you are winning, fewer players you will have to defend each hex from the cornered faction and the third one, plus you will need to spawn more vehicles to cover such distances soo the resources earned will go proportionally out funding the vehicles.

While the loosing faction will ahve 666 players in the same area, a small area soo you won't have that big need of vehicles and so resources . For that reason AV infantry weapons are an important topic.

[Toppopia]

I think you get a default amount of resources each tick anyway, and the devs have been wondering whether to make basic vehicles free. But you can't have sidegrades equipped. But you gets lots of resources for fighting, so even if you are losing, then you will still gain some amount of resources.

[Trafalgar]

Possibilities:

• As long as infantry and their equipment are free, they can still attempt to use AA and AV weaponry and mass firepower to take out enemy tanks and air-power, if it's balanced to make this possible.
• Turrets to defend their bases against air, vehicle, and infantry incursions, or using turrets offensively?
• Special-ops teams stealing enemy vehicles when they're parked or abandoned, and flying them home for use by engineers or LA in battle.
• Gal drops to take enemy bases. Galaxies are fairly cheap, so can probably still be afforded. although I think they can only hold 2 MAXes now. Will have to test and see if you can stand on a gal as a MAX while it's in flight. (If so, that would probably be considered an exploit since they're intended to limit how many can be carried.) However, they can be filled with other classes, such as HA, engies (repair the 2 maxes and make turrets), medics (heal the others, and revive).
• Sending a squad of infiltrators to take a base using their cloaking to approach undetected? We'll have to see if they have any cloaking that will allow them to approach a base and get inside without being detected, e.g. long-term cloaking, or any that will hide them from thermal / blacklight vision. (They'd also need to be capable of defeating enemies in close range, and I am doubtful they could take out a MAX unless perhaps they were able to do a backstab with a force blade or repeatedly shoot it in the head with a scout rifle or something?)

[StumpyTheOzzie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_logistics

Basically, when you're assaulting a position you want to outnumber the enemy forces by about 3:1. Assuming equal pop distribution amongst the 3 empires, you will very handily outnumber the defenders at the exit of your homebase because the vast majority of defenders will be defending the long front line dealing with the 3rd empire.

you'll have 600 people squished into homebase and they'll have 300 at your exit point and 300 elsewhere losing a battle with the 3rd empire (600 vs 300 spread out over 24-odd hexes.)

The third empire will make large gains into the big empire which will require the big empire to move assets into defence allowing your large numbers a cakewalk.

In short, there is a (almost) mathematically solvable amount of territory that will cost the attackers more to take than they will gain by taking it. War becomes uneconomical and so they will entrench and move some assets to a more valuable area. You will never get pushed back into your own dome unless the other 2 empires ally or your faction's weapons are unbalanced.

If you're worried about resource costs, just throw ill-equipped conscripts at the problem like the Russians did to hold Stalingrad. Since you can spawn closer and faster, you will eventually push them out by sheer volumes of meat.

[willaguy]

Originally Posted by Arcticus

So the game starts up and the three factions start going for the initial "homesteading" land grab. At first they have minimal resources but, as the game progresses and each faction grabs the closest territory, individuals start seeing resources coming in and available for use for bigger vehicles and such.

After a while, individuals, specially infantry, see that they are building up resources, maybe even maxing out. There's even talk about whether the resource system is too loose.

Then, a few weeks later, whether through strategical, diplomatic or numerical inferiority, or just happenstance, one of my enemy factions starts loosing territory.

After a while, due to territorial loss, the resource income does not meet their defensive demands. A point is reached where fewer and fewer aircraft and tanks get built.

I agree that they deserve this; with an equal population they lost battles.

But gameplay wise, once they've been beaten back and own only a few hexes, how can they ever make a comeback? Yes, they are invulnerable from being kicked totally out the continent. But where are they to gather the resources to make a comeback? If the devs then grant additional resources for being a loser, doesn't that destroy the territorial imperative of the game.

The first reaction is to say that the catch-22 will be dealt with in beta. But what are YOUR ideas on how they make a comeback for the loser possible without hexing the hexes?

If I missed a thread regarding this particular possible resource issue, please give me a link.

You also gain resources for fighting over territory not just holding it.

[super pretendo]

I think an opportunistic third empire will solve such a problem

[Khellendros]

I don't think this is going to be a problem for balanced pops, since overextending on one front will be an open invitation for the other empire to make a push. Then the overextended empire has to pull back or otherwise lessen the strength of its original effort.

This could be an issue for unbalanced pops, but I doubt that will be much of a threat at least for the first few years...

[Trafalgar]

Originally Posted by StumpyTheOzzie

you'll have 600 people squished into homebase and they'll have 300 at your exit point and 300 elsewhere losing a battle with the 3rd empire (600 vs 300 spread out over 24-odd hexes.)

The third empire will make large gains into the big empire which will require the big empire to move assets into defence allowing your large numbers a cakewalk.

Your analysis assumes that there is only one continent being fought over. This is not the case, so it will be more complicated than that.

[IMCRAZEE]

Originally Posted by Trafalgar

Your analysis assumes that there is only one continent being fought over. This is not the case, so it will be more complicated than that.

Not entirely, since the 600 number he threw out is only based on the max pop for the continent. Sure, other battles will be raging elsewhere, but at the same time it's not hard to max out 666 players on one continent.

Especially, if you remember PS, when a continent starts to really take losses, most of the time people will prioritize and pour into that continent to re-take it and prevent the other faction from gaining lock benefits.

Not sure if the lock benefits will still exist in PS2, but nobody wants to watch an entire continent get over-taken by an enemy Empire.

[Turdicus]

Like it was stated before fighting over territory nets large amounts of resources in the short term, while holding the territory grants small amounts over time. This is confirmed.

So even if you are losing a battle you are gaining resources

[Inverness]

Devs are against being able to steal enemy equipment and vehicles for balance reasons I believe. An alternative is being able to force an enemy vehicle to deconstruct when hacking it so that you get the resources that were used in creating it.

[Trafalgar]

Stealing a vehicle gives the enemy a chance to blow you up in it, though, and there's the hazard that it may be damaged already, whereas deconstructing it is just free loot...

[Arcticus]

Thanks everyone. Your posts have definitely removed my apprehension about this.

1) While I had considered the third empire, I had not considered it enough.

2) I had not even thought about the fact that the less hexes you have left, the less you'll need vehicles -- that's an awesome natural counter-balance that benefits the "faction in need".

3) Also, I had totally forgotten that one gets resources from fighting, not just owning.

With these 3 aspects, I don't feel it impossible for a faction to make a comeback. Even if they're ignorant enough to lose every hex [which seems almost incomprehensible to me after the points you have all made], they can learn some lessons on the other continents and can then attemp a comeback against us NC.

Again, thank you all.