Thanks Heinlein - Page 3

Bittermen · 2012-07-27, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sephirex

Just not sure if I'm comfortable with a system where the government can decide which future voters get suicide missions and which ones get promotions and desk jobs.

Also Service=Citizenship falls back to Roman values, just like the Third Reich did, so there's some room for comparison, though perhaps not justified.

First of all the Military is a MASSIVE entity. Only a small fraction are combat roles.

And again...

infantrymen can even resign just before being sent into combat, with no sanction other than discharge without the right to citizenship and the vote

This is Heinlein's Society. Read my bottom quote of my previous post.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-07-27, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Sephirex

Just not sure if I'm comfortable with a system where the government can decide which future voters get suicide missions and which ones get promotions and desk jobs.

Also Service=Citizenship falls back to Roman values, just like the Third Reich did, so there's some room for comparison, though perhaps not justified.

Luckily I have just finished reading Star Ship Troopers about an hour ago and I am happy to inform you that everyone that is physically capable of fighting, cooks, chaplain, general..they all drop into combat. The only way to get a cushy military desk job is to be so seriously wounded that you would be a detriment to your outfit. Of course if you survived two years of military you could get out and be considered a citizen and then you could vote.

Sephirex · 2012-07-27, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Bittermen

First of all the Military is a MASSIVE entity. Only a small fraction are combat roles.

And again...

Yep and it wouldn't be too hard to make sure potential troublemakers end up in those combat roles.

Originally Posted by Sledgecrushr

Luckily I have just finished reading Star Ship Troopers about an hour ago and I am happy to inform you that everyone that is physically capable of fighting, cooks, chaplain, general..they all drop into combat. The only way to get a cushy military desk job is to be so seriously wounded that you would be a detriment to your outfit. Of course if you survived two years of military you could get out and be considered a citizen and then you could vote.

Of course. His views are perfect! All governments are perfect on paper, because they accept that everyone chips in and does their part. Democracy, Fascism, and Communism could all be fantastic if done right except for one problem.

People. People always break the system down. It's finding the system where the least damage can be done by the corrupt.

Bittermen · 2012-07-27, 03:55 PM

His work as be accused of being Utopian...

"democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest"

Also Service=Citizenship falls back to Roman values, just like the Third Reich did, so there's some room for comparison, though perhaps not justified.

I'd also just like to say Democracy is heavily based on the Romans... Just look at all of our Government buildings...

Sephirex · 2012-07-27, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by Bittermen

His work as be accused of being Utopian...

"democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest"

I'd also just like to say Democracy is heavily based on the Romans... Just look at all of our Government buildings...

You're under the impression I like our government...

Bittermen · 2012-07-27, 04:03 PM

Your under the impression that you would like any government.

Hence the point of
"democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest"

We all hate our government.

Sephirex · 2012-07-27, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by Bittermen

Your under the impression that you would like any government.

Hence the point of
"democracy is the worst form of government except for all the rest"

We all hate our government.

Then I'm not sure why we're arguing.

Bittermen · 2012-07-27, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Sephirex

Then I'm not sure why we're arguing.

We aren't. I just pointed out that a reference you made also applies to our own government.

But if you refering to previous posts then it's because of...

It's not a vision we should strive for.

Caldazar · 2012-07-27, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Bittermen

First of all the Military is a MASSIVE entity. Only a small fraction are combat roles.

Col. David Hackworth, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hackworth, brought up an interesting point regarding this very quote and this very novel.

Mandatory federal service could easily be implemented with a minimal commitment of the populace to combat arms. Explain to me why every individual branch of the military needs its' own cooks, doctors, dentists, mechanics, truck drivers, engineers, payroll accountants, etc. You could combine all of these roles into a new branch of service and have the existing branches focus specifically on their strategic goals.

This proposal maximizes the efficiency of the combat branches and the "support" branch, eliminates overlap in the military budget and has greater appeal generating volunteers. You could then enact mandatory government service w/o putting every son and daughter on the front lines, 3 years of service and boom, college or trade school is paid in full... free. Hell you could use the "support" branch as a domestic peace corp and have them focus on rebuilding the American infrastructure.

Nevermind me though, I'm just a crazy college educated ex-Ranger throwing out fascists ideas.....

Sephirex · 2012-07-27, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Bittermen

We aren't. I just pointed out that a reference you made also applies to our own government.

But if you refering to previous posts then it's because of...

Ah, I made that point because I feel looking for a government type to save us is counterproductive. Governments are only as good as their society democracy or otherwise. However if you're pointing out the virtues shown by the people in the book of personal responsibility to society I couldn't agree more.

Bittermen · 2012-07-27, 04:17 PM

Mandatory Federal service could easily be implemented with a minimal commitment of the populace to combat arms.

This is how it should be imo.

Meriv · 2012-07-27, 08:56 PM

Going back to PS2 what i would like since it is a sci-fi sensor type of person, idk it can be a LA for example, in close range or something like that would be nice and make it pretty balanced since they took from him the ammo drop no?

And down below some thoughts
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I am wondering if in 200 years it will happen like in Jule Verne case where a lot of his ideas has come to reality.

But what i am expecting more to become reality comes from a Asimov idea in one of his stories to use Ice from Saturn Ring to help "terraform"(it wasn't for that in the story) Mars, but probably i will be long dead then

if you want to read some crazy thought at 2 am read below if not jump to next post

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Even if this is taking the way that in few post we will be discussing about Orwell, and pointing out that out of the great 3 i am a Asimov fan (not that you have to choose, i just wonder sometimes if studying a humanistic branch he would have ended creating new theories that would have helped a lot more the human race even at the cost of having no more 3 laws :S that are already helping a lot in the robotics).

You have just to take the good parts of Heinlen book and apply to the reality, Heinlein books give a solution to the nihilism of the modern society in ppl of at least my age (21) but you don't have to take it to the point of of the book that is utopistic and quite fascist.

My point is that you don't take away citizenship from born right but you create a camera (like senate, with his own powers etc..etc.. you should do a major constitutional change and i am not a sociologist ) for the people who has served for civil service (that exist from the second decade of the last century) or military service, obviously giving a proportional salary to give everyone a chance in it. In this way you are not taking away any rights, everyone borns with equal rights, but you can earn more if you realy want to change your reality. And to show that i am not right minded i would even extend it to foreigns that with a longer period of service and with a previous selection can earn the other nation citizenship.
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MorioMortis · 2012-07-27, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Meriv

In this way you are not taking away any rights, everyone borns with equal rights, but you can earn more if you realy want to change your reality. And to show that i am not right minded i would even extend it to foreigns that with a longer period of service and with a previous selection can earn the other nation citizenship.

In Heinlein's example, people are still born equal (nobody has citizenship at birth), but people have to prove they are worthy of deciding for their state. Although this is an affront to modern day liberty, it assures that your citizen population actually values your society, unlike our modern system where most people either have no idea what they are voting for, or are voting to ensure their own self interests (and let's not talk about the actual electoral and ruling processes, that, from a sociological standpoint, are far from "democratic").

The implementation of the system, however, could probably be better, as commented above, by adding a support structure that works; the one in the SS really cannot function in reality, as your combat and support structures are the same, and issues on either end are not mitigable : if your cook gets killed in combat, you don't have a cook. Worse, if your armorer buys it, you better hope your equipment doesn't fail for a while.

As long as you keep everything volunteer, and people are free to choose non-combat services (in the book, there is an allusion to this when some shipmen get into a fight with the MI, over a grudge that their service is not recognized for citizenship), than you have a system where citizenship requires a certain commitment to the state, rather than a meaningless age. In a way, it is similar to both the Hellenic and Roman early republics, but without the racial barriers enforcing the hierarchy.

CutterJohn · 2012-07-28, 12:54 AM

I like SST, but I don't really think it would have the effect Heinlein posited.. There are plenty of war hawks that have also seen combat and have no issues starting wars.

It wouldn't be a bad system, I don't feel, but it wouldn't create a utopia either.

Rivenshield · 2012-07-28, 01:22 AM

Originally Posted by CutterJohn

It wouldn't be a bad system, I don't feel, but it wouldn't create a utopia either.

He wrote the entire book while he was in a frothing black rage over the problem of youth crime. It stands as a monument to the virtues of what Victor Davis Hansen calls 'civic militarism' -- the whole classical idea that the people who vote and till the fields are also the ones who fight, and what an incredibly lethal combination that has been historically.

But yeah. People who spend too much time nosing around in SF novels often mistake Internal Consistency for the great god Realism. That system wouldn't work in RL, any more than the way our country geared up to fight WW2 would be a good way to run the peacetime US in the Information Age.

It's still a humdinger of a novel, though. As action fiction and as a political tract it works just fine. Not to mention it spawned a gigantic pornographic guilty pleasure of a movie.