Zealot Maxes need rebalancing - Page 10

Sunrock · 2013-06-01, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

If Zoe gets nerfed then lockdown needs to as well. No denying that's OP too. (fracture/burster combo's)

Yea because killing a lockdown MAX is so hard. Maybe they need to buff the accuracy of your weapons so you can hit it?

psijaka · 2013-06-01, 04:25 AM

Does anyone have the following (verified) stats for the ZOE MAX?

% speed increase
% dps increase
% health reduction

I've not had too much of a problem with ZOE so far, to be honest, but I would like to know the figures.

Canaris · 2013-06-01, 04:47 AM

When you activate your ZOE there shouldn't be a way of turning it off, it should last a timer then go on cooldown, these ADHD super soldier MAX units are now beyond stupid.

PredatorFour · 2013-06-01, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Sunrock

Yea because killing a lockdown MAX is so hard. Maybe they need to buff the accuracy of your weapons so you can hit it?

LOL Sunrock. I'll leave it at that.

AThreatToYou · 2013-06-01, 02:52 PM

My verdict on ZOE MAX is:

They just need more disadvantages to having it on verses off, and then an activation timer. Been playing for awhile and it's just that the ZOE MAXes are still as hard to kill as any MAX unit.

Turning on ZOE should disable Kinetic Armor, Flak Armor, and the nanite regeneration perks. That way, the strict disadvantage of increasing damage taken is made even between all zealots, and it is easier for the TR and NC to predict how difficult it is to take a Zealot down. And doesn't a deci to the face nuke an un-flakked zealot?

Now with that, we introduce an activation cooldown. Say, about 5 to 10 seconds [maybe even more, to 30 seconds]. That way, turning ZOE on is a commitment in clutch scenarios where you don't know if there's a deci around the next corner when you're using it to run to the next building in a biolab. And you can't just flash it on-off when you see tank shells coming in the distance, or when you hear the whistle of a Phoenix.

I enjoy facing Vanu super-soldiers. They are interesting enemies, and although I rarely kill them, I also rarely die to them. Once, battling in the rooms around the spawn of a tech plant, I killed two Zealots [BR69 and BR40 respectively] and their Engineer by making them chase me and scoring many headshots and surprise-phoenix hits. That was an intense battle, and convinced me that the anti-vehicle grenade is a must-buy.

IMO, 1HK sniper headshots are a more glaring issue than ZOE MAXs.

Falcon_br · 2013-06-01, 02:57 PM

So, I think we all agree here that the best nerfs are:
Activation time, it should take like 5 second to activate the ZOE (or maybe 3-5), during that time it won´t receive the rate of fire bonus, but it will receive increase damage, like it is on the TR max, we can´t move, but we don´t fire faster during that time!
Also a deactivation time, something with the same time, so when you hit then with a concussion grenade, they don´t turn ZOE off at the same time so your rocket won´t do additional damage to it. Can be longer, from 5 to 8 seconds.
It would be very nice to have, because it is very common for ZOE maxes turning on and off it hability depending of the situation.

Another great solution would be an ability with cooldown that can´t be turn off until it ends, like the original overdrive, so if you turn it on you must deal with the extra damage until it is off, the extra rank can decrease the cooldown time, but I really don´t know if everyone want to increase duration, because it may not be good to have something lasting more then one minute if most battles ends faster.

Ellipson · 2013-06-01, 03:27 PM

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

So, I think we all agree here that the best nerfs are:
Activation time, it should take like 5 second to activate the ZOE (or maybe 3-5), during that time it won´t receive the rate of fire bonus, but it will receive increase damage, like it is on the TR max, we can´t move, but we don´t fire faster during that time!
Also a deactivation time, something with the same time, so when you hit then with a concussion grenade, they don´t turn ZOE off at the same time so your rocket won´t do additional damage to it. Can be longer, from 5 to 8 seconds.
It would be very nice to have, because it is very common for ZOE maxes turning on and off it hability depending of the situation.

This combined with the strafing nerfs to ZOE, changing both ZOE and Lockdown to not affect Bursters, a potential fracture adjustment, and some positive adjustments for the Shield should put MAX abilities in a good place. I'm not sure 5-8 seconds is the right figure for that, but an activation/deactivation time for ZOE would go a long way to making some of the available countermeasures more viable.

Not really sure what a good solution to the shield issue is, though; I would have liked to see something for NC that gave them more of an opportunity to operate outside, rather than something that mostly serves to make them even stronger inside. It's weird to me that 2 of the MAX abilities provide damage boosts while 1 doesn't.

maradine · 2013-06-01, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

So, I think we all agree here that the best nerfs are:

Speak for yourself, mate. There's a considerable disagreement that a nerf is needed at all. Only SOE knows for sure.

KodanBlack · 2013-06-01, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by Dreamcast

ZOE strafing speeds need to be greatly reduced, at least to normal infantry levels.

I actually think that putting ZOE on a limited power supply would be a better balancing factor. Like Heavy shields and Infiltrator cloaking. Added levels increase duration.

Falcon_br · 2013-06-01, 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by maradine

Speak for yourself, mate. There's a considerable disagreement that a nerf is needed at all. Only SOE knows for sure.

Ok, dude, go back to interpretation 101.

I said the best nerfs are:

I didn´t say they must do that.

I am one of the few that really don´t care about the ZoE max, I can still kill then with concussion and decimator to the face, and I still prefer to face then on bio labs then the scat max.

But the move speed nerf on the test server are too much for then I think, they will be kind of pointless.

PredatorFour · 2013-06-01, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by Falcon_br

I am one of the few that really don´t care about the ZoE max, I can still kill then with concussion and decimator to the face, and I still prefer to face then on bio labs then the scat max.

Exactly dude, although we kill faster we get raped faster too. This is what a lot of people don't understand cos they're not VS. Rockets screw us up big time. It's almost like whether it's worth not using zoe to stay alive.

If we don't have zoe on we can still cain other empires infantry. If we have it on, we kill faster but drop sooo much faster too.

Falcon_br · 2013-06-02, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Exactly dude, although we kill faster we get raped faster too. This is what a lot of people don't understand cos they're not VS. Rockets screw us up big time. It's almost like whether it's worth not using zoe to stay alive.

If we don't have zoe on we can still cain other empires infantry. If we have it on, we kill faster but drop sooo much faster too.

The problem is, that Zoe maxes with maximum level of kinect armor, do survive rockets to the face with almost half his health.
Unless they find a way to balance the combo Zoe + armor (flak for anti air, kinect for the rest of it), there will be no point of not using Zoe max all the time, people are saying and I must agree with then, there most played VS class right now is the Max class!
Nerfing Lockdown fractures where the TR maxes are immobile, while Zoe maxes just pop up and hit hard with all kinds of anti tank guns and leave before they can be receive any kind of retaliation is stupid!
Also the engineer turret it the best way to stop tank columns, now the NC maxes got one in each arm!
Talking about nerfing lockdown is the most stupid thing I ever heard, placing a activation/deactivation time to Zoe while all other maxes got it, seen reasonable.

Chewy · 2013-06-02, 02:21 AM

Originally Posted by PredatorFour

Exactly dude, although we kill faster we get raped faster too. This is what a lot of people don't understand cos they're not VS. Rockets screw us up big time. It's almost like whether it's worth not using zoe to stay alive.

If we don't have zoe on we can still cain other empires infantry. If we have it on, we kill faster but drop sooo much faster too.

It still takes a good while to deal 8,000 damage instead of he normal 10,000 (not counting armors). With the lower bullets to kill count infantry have even less time to deal damage to a VS MAX. If I see a ZOE MAX at 30m I run my ass off for the closest cover! 6 hits, that's all a ZOE MAX needs to kill an infantry at any range if I remember right. That just doesn't give time to do more than say "Oh shit!" if the MAX has good aim.

Granted this coming from a NC player that likes his MAX might sound something like a bad joke but once again it falls to what makes a shotgun a shotgun and a HMG a HMG. I run dual Mattocks for the sole reason of they have at least a bit of range to them and that I hated Hacksaws since day Beta. Even with Mattocks I need up to 4+ shells from each arm to kill infantry at 15m and they only have 6 without certing extended mags, then it gets to 10. Iv had countless times where I sent 20 total shells at someone and failed to kill from across a room. Without extended mags a NC MAX is crap for general AI work thanks to range and reload times then once you get them you bleed ammo. Unless you are behind some door then NC MAXes just do not have enough range or ammo. My extended mag Mattocks have 10 shells ready and 50 in the pool. 6 full mags, that's it and will last me between 6-10 encounters before Im out of ammo.

Shotguns are not as strong as people bitch they are. Yes a shotgun can kill faster than anything else but ONLY under perfect conditions. Everyday I play I fend off failed attempts to kill me with a shotgun. Pump, auto, doesn't matter. It is not a hard thing to do, you just have to keep a little distance and hope someone doesn't find your blind side. Shotguns need a lot of luck or flat out spam shells to kill without perfect conditions. HMGs, and other standard weapons for that matter, on the other hand are not something you can just squirm in and out of. If a good HMG has you in his sights the fight ends depending on his skill, not his luck.

TR and VS MAXes know damn near exactly where their bullets will land. The more they learn their weapons the better they can control them and the more rounds will hit on target. NC MAXes on the other hand will NEVER know where the shot will land, just that it will be in the area they are pointing. HMGs only have to deal with COF. Shotguns have pellet spread on top of COF almost doubling the post COF spread depending on stance.

VS MAXes already had, in my opinion, the strongest AI weapons before ZOE. No drop, highest damage per round, fastest reloads, and some of if not the lowest COFs. VS MAXes are damn good in my eyes without ZOE, with ZOE they are just WTF levels. Why the VS didn't use their MAXes more before I'll never know. They made men piss themselves. Hell, any supported MAX is deadly if they are kept supported.

I honestly think ZOE should not only have a timer of sorts added but make the MAX far less accurate as well as the lower armor. Think about it. The MAX moves faster, fires overcharged rounds, and gets hurt more. How does it still have the same COF? I might be happy to have them keep the extra speed if that speed costs them accuracy. Say add .25 for still COF and .50 for move COF.

ChipMHazard · 2013-06-02, 04:13 AM

Higby talked about adding a spin up time for the ZOE, both for turning it on and off.

I do so hope that they make the spin up time animated:P

MrMak · 2013-06-02, 01:02 PM

Honestly if they just reduced the ZOE speed boost and made lcokdown and ZOE only affect their empire specific weapons id be happy.

After all these are systems designed by each empire. Vanu MAX weapons are all energy based so ZOE supercharging them makes sense, not so much with the burster or the upcoming Frag cannon or Flamethrower.

With lockdown the way the system would work is that "planting" the MAX would allow it to resist the increased recoil. So all TR MAX weapons have a built in overdrive. NS weapons would not have that since they are designed to be universal not for each empire's MAX specificaly. Heck the Vanu actualy had to design a special grip for the Burster becouse their MAX is so diferent.