Upcomming Surge Changes! - Page 10

Queensidecastle · 2004-03-14, 04:17 PM

Thats an entirely seperate issue. I have said it before on this forum 100 times that I think the Decimator is way overpowered in reguards to MAX suits. That doesnt have anything to do with warping and Surge. Now if the trooper is warping, why dont we do something reasonable and address that spacific issue. Rexos never appear out of nowhere and Infiltrators in 90% of cases arent even a threat to MAXs. You would have them nerfed anyway when there are better ways to handle this situation? I just dont get it. How can someone possibly defend this line of logic?

Zatrais · 2004-03-14, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by Queensidecastle

It is shortsighted. It is ridiculous. Most of all, it is selfish to ruin the gameplay of others by advocating a change even when there are better alternatives, but the most dissapointing of all, is that the Devs would give in to this demand just to shut you up. I have not heard one acceptable argument as to why the Devs should ignor the specific issue with HA/Surge/Agile warp and instead wholesale nerf the way surged has worked as intended since the day of release. If you cant make that argument, dont even bother responding.

How about this, they are unable to fix the problem. They've tried several times, but they are unable to fix it. There's physical limitations to server hardware and the amount of updates they can push thru their and your pipe whitout clogging it up. They are bound by the min reqs as stated on the pack of the game and they have an obligation to keep the game playable to most people. Fighting people you cannot see is not playable.

So, the vocal minority of surgile users get a slap in the face. Cry me a river, they had their fun in the sun. The warpers has no reason (other than wanting to keep an unfair advantage) what so ever to argue for keeping it as it is, seeing how it gives them a serverly unfair advantage over others.

I for one can't wait for the change to surge. Should be a most welcomed adition.

Seer · 2004-03-14, 04:22 PM

Marsman had a good point about the infiltrators boomering the spawn room. I can't even draw my weapon before they're out the door, forget about destroying the boomer before they set it off. Only happens to me a couple times a week, but I'll file it under valid but frustrating surge tactics.

Marsman · 2004-03-14, 04:27 PM

Originally Posted by Seer

Marsman had a good point about the infiltrators boomering the spawn room. I can't even draw my weapon before they're out the door, forget about destroying the boomer before they set it off. Only happens to me a couple times a week, but I'll file it under valid but frustrating surge tactics.

And I wouldn't even have a problem with that if they only did it once, but I seen 3,4,5,6+ times in a row as they surge around in a circle so fast no one can catch them even with surge themselves, nor be able to put more than one bullet into them as they whizz by.

Queensidecastle · 2004-03-14, 04:28 PM

I find the notion that Infiltrators are overpowerd just laughable and furthermore the only vocal minority are the people trying to have surged nerfed. Everyone else either just doesnt care one way or the other or likes it just the way it is. As far as not being able to fix the problem: I will give you that they have tried to fix Warping. They may in fact not be able to solve this one technically, but when the final solution is to nerf, then you want to nerf with as little impact as possible. Choosing to hoslter weapons as opposed to disable jumping for example is not because of a technical limitation, it is because of months of whining and is a knee jerk reaction

Marsman · 2004-03-14, 04:41 PM

well I'd hardly call infitrators over-powered either. If fact they've taken plenty of hits over the months. This does limit them further and I do hope the devs give them some more attention soon. Infiltrators were brought up simply to point out there are multiple issues with surge and addressing one part of the problem leaving the other intact is just not an effective solution either.

Queensidecastle · 2004-03-14, 05:02 PM

I am just not buying it. Warping is not that common to begin with and 90% of that is because of jumping. We can all live with the miniscule ammout of warp that would remain if the proper tweaks were made. Misdirection away from the main cause of warping and why it is a problem doesnt work in this case. It is disingenuous to pretend there are "other" problems with Surge when there really is only 1 problem with how people are using it. A problem that can be fixed any number of ways other than the proposed fix that would not include such negative impacts to the game.

Krinsath · 2004-03-14, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Queensidecastle

I find the notion that Infiltrators are overpowerd just laughable and furthermore the only vocal minority are the people trying to have surged nerfed. Everyone else either just doesnt care one way or the other or likes it just the way it is. As far as not being able to fix the problem: I will give you that they have tried to fix Warping. They may in fact not be able to solve this one technically, but when the final solution is to nerf, then you want to nerf with as little impact as possible. Choosing to hoslter weapons as opposed to disable jumping for example is not because of a technical limitation, it is because of months of whining and is a knee jerk reaction

Infiltrators are not overpowered, but a tactic to which the counter is "Wait until they're out of boomers" is ridiculous, especially when it concerns the spawn room.

Most of the people I talk to hate those who abuse Surge warpers, even if they are one themselves. Why? Because it's a cheap way to win, but when so many people abuse something, your only option if to abuse back. Fighting fire with fire, as it were. PS then degenerates into a world of Rambo players that blink in and out across people's screen. You know what a new player would say if they saw that? "Screw this...if I wanted to play a broken game full of exploits, I'll go play Counter-Strike...for free".

The problem is that the "no jumping" solution does *NOT* fix all the problems associated with surge and warping. You will still have warping with hills, stairs, ramps and any other elevation change, which no jump really doesn't address. What are they going to do...make everything flat? Hence, the no-jump is a *BAD* solution for the overall problem. Jumping happens to fit into the category of "elevation change" which is why it's the easiest way to exploit it...because you don't always have a staircase handy (though it happens commonly enough, especially in towers).

The main problem with the warpers isn't that they're hard to kill...if they're warping they're damned near impossible to kill. How can you hit that which isn't showing on your screen? That leads to frustrations in the playerbase, which leads to cancelled subscriptions, which leads to PS shutting down. Surge is no longer fitting in with the Dev's design goals, so they have decided this needs to be done to it to bring it back in line with how they feel combat should progress.

If people protest leveling the playing field, one must wonder how truly talented these individuals are, especially since their defense is "Well, why don't you get better?" Their weapon is going to be just as effective, it's just now they can't infilct any damage unless they're showing on the enemy's screen correctly. If you can't win when things are at least marginally fair, then...guess the Surgile wasn't as talented as they thought.

I doubt this is the death-knell of the Surgile, but it's the end of it's dominance in CQB. Of course, those who are truly no talent surgiles will have left before the patch makes it to the test server...and those who do have skill will look and go "meh, not that big of a change" and continue to be good players.

TheN00b · 2004-03-14, 05:27 PM

QSC, I seem to recall you saying on another thread how you had a pretty sweet computer rig, with a nice graphix card and good RAM. What about the people who don't have sweet computers? Do you want them all just to leave? Because warping is a large issue, though it may not be on your computer.

Lartnev · 2004-03-14, 05:34 PM

Thats an entirely seperate issue. I have said it before on this forum 100 times that I think the Decimator is way overpowered in reguards to MAX suits.

Like I said, in my face out of nowhere. The fact it was a decimator only added insult to injury.

A problem that can be fixed any number of ways other than the proposed fix that would not include such negative impacts to the game.

And yet you still haven't given us one of them.

If I remember rightly the problem is prediction. The server has to make assumptions as to where you are heading so that by the time clients receive that information, it's likely to be accurate. Now when you hit surge that changes things. The server has to put you that much further ahead. If you're running in a straight line this doesn't constitute a problem. But if you rapidly change direction, going round a corner for example, the server has assumed you're still going in the same direction, corrects its mistake, and you get warping. You sometimes see it with aircraft, which are going a lot faster than infantry, but they can't change direction nealy as rapidly as someone with high mouse sensitivity. Turns in aircraft and vehicles are also easier to predict as they tend to be smoother. If you removed server and client side prediction then warping would actually become worse because what you see is constantly lagging behind what has actually happened. Couple that with client side hit detection and you're asking for trouble in a game like planetside. Remove client side hit detection? Just don't go there. People would need that spread on the jackhammer.

Removing the ability to fire with surge won't stop the warping of course, what it will stop is the ability to wage combat during that warping.

I'll admit I've made some assumptions in the above paragraph concerning how the servers deal with latency, but I think it seems to hold together. Gladly correct any mistakes I have made.

Happy lil Elf · 2004-03-14, 05:49 PM

furthermore the only vocal minority are the people trying to have surged nerfed. Everyone else either just doesnt care one way or the other or likes it just the way it is.

Not that Oxo can read this, as he decided to put me on ignore rather than deal with me blasting his arguments to bits and pieces, but I'll post it anyway:

You do not speak for everyone. Have you done a poll? Have you talked to everyone playing Planetside about this issue? No? I didn't think so. Until you do, sit down and shut up.

PhoenixTypeX · 2004-03-14, 05:57 PM

Everyone should just think yourselves damn lucky to be able to have this kind of developer/community relationship. Most other games out there get no response from the devs after completion and are lucky if they get a patch every half a year and thats with no explanation of what is in the patch most of the times. So leave off the Dev's they are doing a great job.

Seer · 2004-03-14, 07:11 PM

To be fair, Phoenix, most other games don't require their customers to pony up every month to continue playing. The devs do have an ongoing responsibility towards us.

Queensidecastle · 2004-03-14, 07:25 PM

The problem is that the "no jumping" solution does *NOT* fix all the problems associated with surge and warping. You will still have warping with hills, stairs, ramps and any other elevation change, which no jump really doesn't address. What are they going to do...make everything flat? Hence, the no-jump is a *BAD* solution for the overall problem. Jumping happens to fit into the category of "elevation change" which is why it's the easiest way to exploit it...because you don't always have a staircase handy (though it happens commonly enough, especially in towers)

Are you actually telling me that you dont know that the proposed fix isnt going to stop warping? Do you really not understand that? I mean this is the kind of stuff I am talking about. I keep debating this issue with people who dont even understand the core of the problem.

Infiltrators are not overpowered, but a tactic to which the counter is "Wait until they're out of boomers" is ridiculous, especially when it concerns the spawn room

I dont even know how to respond to this one. If you cant keep infiltrators from getting into your spawn room, I dont know what to tell you. This argument is as asinine as the ones where people are out in the open and complain about being run over by a vehicle.

The main problem with the warpers isn't that they're hard to kill...if they're warping they're damned near impossible to kill. How can you hit that which isn't showing on your screen? That leads to frustrations in the playerbase, which leads to cancelled subscriptions, which leads to PS shutting down. Surge is no longer fitting in with the Dev's design goals, so they have decided this needs to be done to it to bring it back in line with how they feel combat should progress.

Like I said, remove jumping while surging, drain out stamina if carrying heavy assault..etc but you dont even want to TRY those first. You would rather use the worst available idea for a fix that is a Huge nerf to a huge ammount of people and that Still will not stop the warping

And yet you still haven't given us one of them

I have already given you 3 of my own ideas which are lightyears better than the proposed solution. Bother reading the OF and you will find 10 more

Kaymon · 2004-03-14, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Queensidecastle

Like I said, remove jumping while surging, drain out stamina if carrying heavy assault..etc but you dont even want to TRY those first.

You say that like they don't have their own internal servers to test this out. A few months ago, someone suggested disabling surge while using HA, but Smokejumper replied saying the code didn't allow for it.