Quick Knife - Is it really the best option?

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Zekeen

I'm sorry, was I supposed to necro? I was wasn't I, I'm so bad at the dark arts of forum going...

Don't beat yourself up. The search feature and how to properly create a poll is not something everyone picks up immediately. Reading threads and gaining an objective viewpoint about a subject to discuss it can take even longer.

Originally Posted by Zekeen

I do believe this thread has credibility. Let's keep it at, "we've all been speaking against it since Higby asked us and somehow it ended up in the game" discussion. It's now a legitimate concern. If you're for the quick knife, bring something new to the table, don't just point back 3 or 4 months ago.

Yeah and they took our feedback into consideration to make the knife a balanced implementation. I'm not sure what you wanted? Was it being overly used in the E3 video? Were people lunging across the map into players? I don't understand what your complaint is. If you read the thread you quoted everyone listed out what they didn't want and what they did want to see from a quick knife implementation and we got pretty much everything everyone asked for. The only thing that isn't clear is how equipping the knife works.

Originally Posted by Dart

LMAO! I'm not new to this forum and have you seen the results in the thread you just linked to support your argument?

What are you talking about? The poll? Most of the people that answered in the poll immediately went back on what they said and commented that they just didn't want a one-hit knife. Refer to this summary. This is why proper polling is important and using polls for these kind of questions are pointless since people vote before they think which invariably results in people changing their viewpoint after making assumptions. (I've been guilty of this before). That and most polls are designed (sometimes without realized it) to box their voters into their preferred choice. Read this poll objectively. Do you think anyone wants a modern FPS quick-knife implementation? To many people as we found out that means a one-hit kill knife. No one wants that. (A few people did, but it was negligible).

Originally Posted by Top Sgt

simple.. this is not an arcade shooter

"Planetside 2 is not a military simulator"
"Planetside 2 is not an arcade shooter"
"Planetside 2 is not Planetside"
"Planetside 2 is not BF3"

You guys need to make up your minds or start putting a signature that says "Planetside 2 is what I'm currently thinking to be valid" which luckily is how I generally view it also, so we have a lot in common.

[lMABl]

Originally Posted by Top Sgt

simple.. this is not an arcade shooter

We don't need scrubs running around trying to quick knife for montages

make it so you have to equip the knife and then click it again to stab etc.. nothing quick about it. it should be stealth that get's you the kill.. not lag/latency or pressing the button and panic knifing etc.

Agreed, Id like to see something like in BFBC2. No quick knifing like CoD and nothing animated like BF3.

[Top Sgt]

Originally Posted by Sirisian

"Planetside 2 is not a military simulator"
"Planetside 2 is not an arcade shooter"
"Planetside 2 is not Planetside"
"Planetside 2 is not BF3"

You guys need to make up your minds or start putting a signature that says "Planetside 2 is what I'm currently thinking to be valid" which luckily is how I generally view it also, so we have a lot in common.

it's not a mil. sim
it's not an "arcade" shooter
It's not PS1
and it's def not BF3

it's Planetside 2 and it does not need Quick knifing. lol

[Sifer2]

Honestly few things in modern FPS are more annoying than stupid overpowered knives. And quick knife just makes it 10 times worse. I think they have quick grenades in too. Which is also dumb. The delay of equipping this stuff helps keep down spam. Or if the Knife is OP it at least keeps it from so easily beating a Shotgun in a close range fight which is ridiculous. But a common thing to happen in Battlefield/CoD.

Personally I would vote for equip to Knife. And at least 2 to 3 stabs from the front to kill. If instant kill from behind is in then it needs an to require a short animation, and only trigger after holding the button for a few seconds without the victim facing you. Otherwise you get laggy facestab shenanigans.

[Sirisian]

Originally Posted by Sifer2

Honestly few things in modern FPS are more annoying than stupid overpowered knives.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but don't you think you're jumping to conclusions by assuming the knife has to be overpowered and that the implementation you saw in other games is the only implementation that would be possible in Planetside 2? Curious if you saw this implementation. What would be your complaint? Like your actual argument or fears about it?

(Also if anyone is curious, why I'm reiterating this idea it's because people won't read more than a few comments. So in order to properly hold a conversation every new poster must be brought up to speed with the group).

[Haro]

This seems like a remarkably minor point to argue, especially when I don't think I've seen footage of quick-knives actually doing anything. If a new animation or whatever makes everyone happy, fine. I just can't muster the energy to care. Not in the slightest.

[Hermes]

Originally Posted by Dart

I must've put 10 posts in this thread and I've still not seen one non-fluff post as to why "quick melee" should even exist in PlanetSide... It simply isn't necessary.

Here's a reason.

When you need to reload, or have a weapon you can't run and gun with, and an enemy is right up in your face... you feel impotent. The game feels limited because you can't take it to close quarters, which is what your instincts are screaming at you to do.

I compare this to jumping.

If the game was scattered with knee high walls that your character could not jump over you would find this an infuriating limitation. This is the same to me when my instincts yell for a melee.

Also like jumping, a melee option is open to abuse and overuse and should be designed and tuned appropriately.

Originally Posted by Dart

Equip the knife (like every other weapon in PlanetSide) and, as others have said, allow people to specialize in it. F' COD and it's 'quick knives'.

Lets do that as well. Have the equip knife as the damage dealer, and the quick melee as a get-out-of-my-grill button with a long enough cooldown to limit it to tactical use.

I support the rubber baton version of a quick knife, and the equipped knife for damage and specialisation.


Also the topic of "well suck less, spray n pray fool" is thrown about too much in these topics. This mixes up the ammo management game, it doesn't replace it.

[Dart]

Originally Posted by Hermes

Here's a reason.

When you need to reload, or have a weapon you can't run and gun with, and an enemy is right up in your face... you feel impotent. The game feels limited because you can't take it to close quarters, which is what your instincts are screaming at you to do.

I compare this to jumping.

If the game was scattered with knee high walls that your character could not jump over you would find this an infuriating limitation. This is the same to me when my instincts yell for a melee.

Also like jumping, a melee option is open to abuse and overuse and should be designed and tuned appropriately.



Lets do that as well. Have the equip knife as the damage dealer, and the quick melee as a get-out-of-my-grill button with a long enough cooldown to limit it to tactical use.

I support the rubber baton version of a quick knife, and the equipped knife for damage and specialisation.


Also the topic of "well suck less, spray n pray fool" is thrown about too much in these topics. This mixes up the ammo management game, it doesn't replace it.

Or... you know.... you could just plan the fight better and NOT end up with someone in your face while you're reloading. Or if that does happen accept you f'ed up and learn from it!

You said you can't take it to close quarters? Of course you can. Just switch your gun for your knife and go as close quarters as you like! It makes a lot more sense than sprouting a mutant third arm which will slash your enemy in 0.1 of a second!

Quick knife requires no skill to use and for the role players out there, makes absolutely no sense in real-world terms. The community is overwhelmingly against it and would clearly rather see JUST an equip knife in which you can specialize. Let's hope the devs realize this and give us what we want.

[Frotang]

Originally Posted by Hermes

Here's a reason.

When you need to reload, or have a weapon you can't run and gun with, and an enemy is right up in your face... you feel impotent. The game feels limited because you can't take it to close quarters, which is what your instincts are screaming at you to do.

So your basically saying in the heat of battle you stress out and want a quick one button solution to your current problem (no ammo and enemy in your face). While a more tactical and skillful player could assess the situation and decide if they have time to equip their knife and fight or choose an alternate solution. Ya I guess we should make it easy for your "instincts" to kick in sure why not.

[Dart]

Originally Posted by Frotang

So your basically saying in the heat of battle you stress out and want a quick one button solution to your current problem (no ammo and enemy in your face). While a more tactical and skillful player could assess the situation and decide if they have time to equip their knife and fight or choose an alternate solution. Ya I guess we should make it easy for your "instincts" to kick in sure why not.

Precisely. The short response to anyone asking for a "quick knife"? L2p!

[Hermes]

Originally Posted by Dart

Or... you know.... you could just plan the fight better and NOT end up with someone in your face while you're reloading.

Deja-vu!

Originally Posted by Hermes

Also the topic of "well suck less, spray n pray fool" is thrown about too much in these topics. This mixes up the ammo management game, it doesn't replace it.

Originally Posted by Dart

Or if that does happen accept you f'ed up and learn from it!

Or we can add a missing axis to the game and learn to play something new other than floaty turret deathmatch. This has nothing to do with learning to play the game, and everything to do with how we play it.

Its a tired old excuse. Ever played winter olympics? I'm sure we would have loved stagnating at the tap-two-buttons-as-fast-as-you can phase because new ideas were dismissed as a lack of aptitude.

Originally Posted by Dart

You said you can't take it to close quarters? Of course you can. Just switch your gun for your knife and go as close quarters as you like! It makes a lot more sense than sprouting a mutant third arm which will slash your enemy in 0.1 of a second!

Note that i'm for rifle butt/pistol whip/pushing a fist in their face, not the crazy fast mutant third arm.

Also note that both strategies could exist. Quick snap in the face to gain time but with no damage, or go for your knife, or one then the other, or a quick snap then reload, or a quick snap so your mate can plug him.... it's depth of gameplay, options and tactics.

Originally Posted by Dart

Quick knife requires no skill to use and for the role players out there, makes absolutely no sense in real-world terms. The community is overwhelmingly against it and would clearly rather see JUST an equip knife in which you can specialize. Let's hope the devs realize this and give us what we want.

Your definition of skill ends at counting shots then. Hardly very deep.

A well implemented melee option adds skill rather than defeats it. Please remember that a damage focussed quick knife or lock on lunge one hit kills are not what I'm talking about.

[Hermes]

Originally Posted by Frotang

So your basically saying in the heat of battle you stress out and want a quick one button solution to your current problem (no ammo and enemy in your face). While a more tactical and skillful player could assess the situation and decide if they have time to equip their knife and fight or choose an alternate solution.

Hah! Well a non damaging quick melee is not a solution but a chain allowing another tactic. A tactical and skillful player would like a variety of balanced counters to any situation.

Here's the idea though, if you don't have time to reload or swap your weapon your solutions are to die or die while reloading. And it feels 1 dimensional to watch yourself sit through that if someone is right next to you.

Originally Posted by Frotang

Ya I guess we should make it easy for your "instincts" to kick in sure why not.

How dare you impune my instincts with quotes!

You've deliberately mis-constructed what I said as a one shot kill i-win button. Please try to be constructive.

[Dart]

Originally Posted by elfailo

With the pathetically low TTK's they currently have, it really doesn't matter. You can't lame around with knives because you will die long before you can reach someone, even if they suck at aiming. Quick knives would only cause any serious lameness if TTK's were higher and the knives killed instantly.

Everyone is missing the obvious though; the only reason they're even considering this, and we're debating this, is because it is from COD/BF. That's the unspoken misery that sparks all these 'debates' (i.e. rationalizations). Everyone knows they're trying to bring in more players by making the game more Battlefield-like, so there's a constant underlying tension between people who like that game, and those that don't.

Frankly I don't care, as long as they don't kill instantly and the TTK's are sufficiently high. It's just the lack of inspiration that bothers me. They could have come up with a dozen more imaginative kinds of melee, but they're going for the obvious quick knives because it's in all "modern shooters".

That's the kicker right there. It's not because it's a better game-mechanic. It's simply because a lot of 14-year olds are familiar with it. But cyco the reason I'm against quick knives isn't just because it'll be annoying as hell having guys stab you with a third arm (or rifile-butt you in the face, Hermes) whenever they run out of ammo but also because it'll mean that guys who're actually GOOD with a knife will be reduced to the same 'one button wonder' tactics that everyone else uses. It's removing an entire facet of the game which actually encourages skill and replacing it with one that doesn't.

And Hermes, in my opinion, if you have a knife you can equip there is absolutely not need for any kind of one button escape route. That isn't an extra dimension, that's a crutch. If you want to add an extra dimension, create a thread about more melee options such as parrying.

[Frotang]

Well Im not a fan of over complicating mele by having all these different options for a knife/ rifle bash/ stun or whatever. Just have an equippable knife that you must manually attack and aim with thats it plain and simple.

And I didn't interpret your instincts as a OHK. I interpreted it as a panicked "omg no ammo guy in my face spam for my mele key! Phew thank goodness for the game being able to translate my single key push into a combination of actions that I can now refer to as my instincts" option.

[Hermes]

Originally Posted by Dart

But cyco the reason I'm against quick knives isn't just because it'll be annoying as hell having guys stab you with a third arm (or rifile-butt you in the face, Hermes) whenever they run out of ammo but also because it'll mean that guys who're actually GOOD with a knife will be reduced to the same 'one button wonder' tactics that everyone else uses. It's removing an entire facet of the game which actually encourages skill and replacing it with one that doesn't.

My one button tactic ain't a wonder. It's not effective by itself, and is useless except when you are bumping noses in a corridor.

Without a doubt, im fully against any implementation of this that replaces gun play in medium range firefights.

Originally Posted by Dart

And Hermes, in my opinion, if you have a knife you can equip there is absolutely not need for any kind of one button escape route. That isn't an extra dimension, that's a crutch.

It's an extra dimension as it gives you an option for when you don't have enough time for a weapon swap. Which has to be slow enough to prevent the equipped knife being a quick knife. And I agree that a high damage quick knife is a poor game addition.

It's only a crutch if it's use always signifys a win. What it should do is force another round of reactions from attacker and defender, or allow teamwork:

- I'm almost dead, I spank the opponent, my team mate drops him.
- I'm out of ammo, I spank the opponent, dodge towards cover to reload he tracks faster and still wins

Cooldowns, immunity from further spanks, lack of damage, these things all prevent it becoming a one hit wonder or spammable tactic. And it's only usable when you are up close. People only forgo shooting altogether in favour of melee because they know if they get close they win. This is not the case with what I propose.

Originally Posted by Dart

If you want to add an extra dimension, create a thread about more melee options such as parrying.

The poll has an option for rifle butt. I posted how I saw rifle butts being used a while back. The OP thought it was an interesting idea. The thread is called "Quick Knife - Is it really the best option?".

I think I'm allowed in this thread with my rifle butt idea thanks!

EDIT: Added some clarity.