Devs: Engineers Should carry Ammo packs..not LA's. - Page 11

SergeantNubins · 2012-06-17, 06:58 PM

Originally Posted by Ratstomper

I remember higby mentioning in one of the PS1 stream chats that they're thinking about giving ammo drops to the engy, so I think this idea is already underway.

The lady whose name escapes me but is a games designer at SOE and does a lot of their PR stuff on PS2 also said it in one of the live streams from E3.

GreatMazinkaise · 2012-06-17, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by SergeantNubins

The lady whose name escapes me but is a games designer at SOE and does a lot of their PR stuff on PS2 also said it in one of the live streams from E3.

PurrfectStorm (unknown number of Rs)... the VS talking head with the lip ring.

Robotix · 2012-06-17, 07:36 PM

I honestly think Engineers have enough stuff going on as it is. What would we have to give up to carry around ammo packs anyways?

indirect · 2012-06-17, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by RodenyC

Ammo/Med packs don't belong in general .

Old post, I'm sure it got beat to hell - but completely disagree. We don't have nonstatic inventories anymore. They are a necessity.

GreatMazinkaise · 2012-06-17, 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by Robotix

I honestly think Engineers have enough stuff going on as it is. What would we have to give up to carry around ammo packs anyways?

Presumably it'd be a function of the new ACE, so... almost nothing?

Vydofnir · 2012-06-18, 04:33 AM

I plan on playing LA quite a bit, and I don't feel like ammo packs would fit particularly well with my intended playstyle. That being said, I don't feel that my playstyle should be the only playstyle available to the LA. Even though I don't want ammo packs personally, the LA should have support-oriented options available in the cert tree. If infiltrators can trade their long-range weapon loadout for a longer cloak, it makes sense to me that a LA could be able to have ammo packs at the cost of being limited to close-range weapons like shotguns. I rather like the idea of the jump pack being used to resupply troops at different positions along the front line as it allows for a degree of coordination between the LA and HA classes.

I think some people might be losing sight of the fact that, while engineers have many responsibilities, it's not likely that they will be expected or even able to do all of these at once. Considering the aforementioned infiltrator example, I think any given engineer loadout is going to focus on no more than a couple of responsibilities at once. If you want to play the role of pilot, you probably won't be equipped to build turrets or lay mines. I see no reason that ammo distribution shouldn't be just one more branch on the engineers' cert tree to be explored at the individual players discretion.

With regards to the HA, it seems fair to me that they should be able to cert into carrying ammo packs at the expense of being able to equip an LMG primary. That would increase their versatility in one sense (squad support), whilst limiting it in another (fire support). Either way the HA can keep their rocket launcher/jackhammer/etc. and stay true to whatever their main heavy support role might be.

Ammo packs make sense in PS2, but I don't think they are vital to any class in the way that healing is to medics or repairing is to engineers. It seems to me that ammo drops make the most sense as a facet of the cert tree open to multiple classes, but forced on none.

MrSmegz · 2012-06-18, 07:53 AM

I agree with Ammo being a trade-off for LA's Jumpjet, and HA's Shield boost. but make it take an item slot of some kind and you can only drop one, until you hit an equipment terminal again. That way players don't spam these things just to farm resupply points in stagnate battles. (See: Operation Metro)

RageMasterUK · 2012-06-18, 08:42 AM

It makes perfect sense for LA to have ammo packs. LA can get to me faster than any other class if I am out of ammo. If u need ammo, would you not want it as quick as possible? LA's are best suited to service in this capacity.

If they DIDNT have ammo packs they would be MORE likely to be lone-wolfers. Without your ammo caddy role, what would keep you close to your squad? Nothing. You'd fly off without a care for your friendlies. Everyone talking ammo out of the LA class I feel are encouraging LA lone wolfing. Some of these posts read like players actually want LA to be a lone wolf class!

Alot of you folks have the fear I think that they're gonna fly up ontop of a perch, ammo box themselves and lone wolf. Alot of players are forgetting that LA will most likely get an nice XP incentive for giving teammates ammunition. You think they'd want to miss out on XP? Would you? Ofcourse not. You are not factoring this into gameplay right now. LA are going to be giefing out ammo like candy for this reason.

Light Assault will be the second quickest class to kill. Do you honestly believe they're gonna survive long enough to top themselves up with ammo? Im willing to bet the majority of LA lone wolfers will get killed before they hit their special key. They will be seeking medics way before they worry about their own ammo supply. And when they find their medic, they gonna have nothin to give back in return if u take the ammo off them

E3 booth-players could care less about their XP, so please do not cite those videos to back your claims of LA lone-wolfing. It is after a few weeks people will have settled into their roles, not after 30 minutes.

Engineers have far too much on their plate already it seems. No to engineer ammo.

AMMO IS ESSENTIAL TO SQUAD SURVIVAL. Currently, LA is essential to squads. Removing ammo drops from LA makes them non-essential squadmembers IMHO. Giving ammo to engineers makes them SUPER ESSENTIAL. This creates class imbalance.

This is just how I feelz about this

-RageMasterUK

mintyc · 2012-06-18, 09:11 AM

i am gona go through each class and give you my 2p...

Light Assult - yeah i can see why this could cause and issue, they are more hit and run shock troops and the rest of the army wouldent be able to reach the ammo packs, as they would probably be on a roof or some other safe spot that the LA would then run back to rearm and recharge.

takeing the ammo pack away from the LA also might leave the class a little flat, perhaps the answer is to give them a larger granade capacity and some realy funky grenades, spider bomb anyone?

Enginer - seen lots surgesting this class should have ammo packs, from what i can tell from screen shots and vids the enginer alredy has an ace deplyable resurply term for ammo and granades, so giveing them ammo packs too would be a little redundant.

Combat Medic - i know some dont like this on lore grounds but from the point of view of enforceing squad cohesion its not that bad an idea. i mean how far would you stary from the guy who could heal, rez and give you ammo?

i actualy like this idea rather alot, haveing an option to load out a CM with a load of surport gear and form the heart of a squad while still keeping the option to be more combat focued and carry less surport gear just healing and rezing when needed.

Infiltrator - i have to admit the idea of being a sniper with my own ammo surply is very apealing but the trade off would have to be rather big (no cloak maybe?) to stop it from being stupidly over powered.

Heavy Assualt - some have sugested that you should have the option to take an ammo pack or the personal shield. thats not a bad idea, an option between short term survivability or haveing more staying power in a long fight.

i think this is a realy good idea but it would probably be agood idea to have it be a mid cert tree upgrade just to give players some time with the shield so that they can learn to use it properly.

-----------

personaly i would like to see the combat medic and the heavy assualt both get acess to ammo pack loadout options, this combined with the enginers superior resurply term should give a good ammo surply on the front line while giveing flexability to the clases that have access to them.

RageMasterUK · 2012-06-18, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by mintyc

Light Assult - yeah i can see why this could cause and issue, they are more hit and run shock troops and the rest of the army wouldent be able to reach the ammo packs, as they would probably be on a roof or some other safe spot that the LA would then run back to rearm and recharge.

If the LA in your squad put the ammo pack out of reach then he is an idiot.

With the greatest maneuverability of all classes its the LA's responsibility to make sure he puts the ammo pack near his squad. This is how the LA's will get their support XP. If your LA's dont do this properly then you should consider kicking them out of your squad.

Most LA's will perform this role well without pressure from their peers, if there is an apt XP reward for rearming friendlies, which there will be. LA's WILL WANT TO PUT THEIR AMMO PACK WHERE IT WILL GET THE MOST USAGE.

Originally Posted by mintyc

Combat Medic - i know some dont like this on lore grounds but from the point of view of enforceing squad cohesion its not that bad an idea. i mean how far would you stary from the guy who could heal, rez and give you ammo?

This kinda defeats your previous point about the Light Assaults putting ammo packs out of reach.

Surely the LA are going to want to be healed too, therefore they will WANT TO REJOIN THEIR SQUAD ANYWAY and will get an opportunity to drop their ammo pack right next to their medic, and every other squaddie wanting heals. LA are not going to stray from medics, they want health too, so you still have health and ammo in the same place w/o putting it all on one class. Giving engineers/medics everything team related is not the way to make teamplay more viable. If medics could heal themselves AND rearm, this would increase the chances of turning the medic class into lone wolves.

Just my meandering conjecture and opinion mind....

-RageMasterUK

mintyc · 2012-06-18, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by RageMasterUK

If the LA in your squad put the ammo pack out of reach then he is an idiot.

this game is f2p + internet. what sort of the idiot to none-idiot ratio do you think we are gona get?

Originally Posted by RageMasterUK

With the greatest maneuverability of all classes its the LA's responsibility to make sure he puts the ammo pack near his squad. This is how the LA's will get their support XP. If your LA's dont do this properly then you should consider kicking them out of your squad.

Most LA's will perform this role well without pressure from their peers, if there is an apt XP reward for rearming friendlies, which there will be. LA's WILL WANT TO PUT THEIR AMMO PACK WHERE IT WILL GET THE MOST USAGE.

with the greatest manuvrability i would much prefer the LA to be seting up flanking positions for a nice crossfire, harrying the enemy and spliting ther fire, not hanging around in the main squad.

with an ammo pack a LA trooper would probably nest in a high up position thus removeing the need to move as a result of runing low on ammo. this extra time spent nesting would allow the enemy to respond with ground troops or ther own LA on mass. this will probably get the LA killed in a position that the teams medic cant get to and all of a sudden the team has lost its most manuvrable member and its ammo surply.

so now you are in a position wher bad players run off with ther ammo packs and get themselves killed, and good players know that there squad cant afford them geting killed trying to flank.

Originally Posted by RageMasterUK

This kinda defeats your previous point about the Light Assaults putting ammo packs out of reach.

Surely the LA are going to want to be healed too, therefore they will WANT TO REJOIN THEIR SQUAD ANYWAY and will get an opportunity to drop their ammo pack right next to their medic, and every other squaddie wanting heals. LA are not going to stray from medics, they want health too, so you still have health and ammo in the same place w/o putting it all on one class. Giving engineers/medics everything team related is not the way to make teamplay more viable. If medics could heal themselves AND rearm, this would increase the chances of turning the medic class into lone wolves.

Just my meandering conjecture and opinion mind....

-RageMasterUK

LA are, thanks to ther high manuvrability a high risk/high reward class with lower survivability than the other frontline troops in a stand up fire fight. LA survivability stems from there ability to escape from heavyer threats and reposition rapidly. so the LA will ether take light damage that will not need them to run back to a medic or big damage from being flanked or surprised, this would probably kill the LA outright due to low armour.

the Combat Medic would make a very poor lone wolf as it lacks the armour, heavy wepons and manuvrability to deal efectivly with Heavy assult troops, MAX's and vehicles on ther own. this means that the best place for a CM is wher they can get the surport of other tooper types and this is also the place that needs the most healing and ammo.

Sledgecrushr · 2012-06-18, 12:14 PM

Originally Posted by RageMasterUK

It makes perfect sense for LA to have ammo packs. LA can get to me faster than any other class if I am out of ammo. If u need ammo, would you not want it as quick as possible? LA's are best suited to service in this capacity.

If they DIDNT have ammo packs they would be MORE likely to be lone-wolfers. Without your ammo caddy role, what would keep you close to your squad? Nothing. You'd fly off without a care for your friendlies. Everyone talking ammo out of the LA class I feel are encouraging LA lone wolfing. Some of these posts read like players actually want LA to be a lone wolf class!

Alot of you folks have the fear I think that they're gonna fly up ontop of a perch, ammo box themselves and lone wolf. Alot of players are forgetting that LA will most likely get an nice XP incentive for giving teammates ammunition. You think they'd want to miss out on XP? Would you? Ofcourse not. You are not factoring this into gameplay right now. LA are going to be giefing out ammo like candy for this reason.

Light Assault will be the second quickest class to kill. Do you honestly believe they're gonna survive long enough to top themselves up with ammo? Im willing to bet the majority of LA lone wolfers will get killed before they hit their special key. They will be seeking medics way before they worry about their own ammo supply. And when they find their medic, they gonna have nothin to give back in return if u take the ammo off them

E3 booth-players could care less about their XP, so please do not cite those videos to back your claims of LA lone-wolfing. It is after a few weeks people will have settled into their roles, not after 30 minutes.

Engineers have far too much on their plate already it seems. No to engineer ammo.

AMMO IS ESSENTIAL TO SQUAD SURVIVAL. Currently, LA is essential to squads. Removing ammo drops from LA makes them non-essential squadmembers IMHO. Giving ammo to engineers makes them SUPER ESSENTIAL. This creates class imbalance.

This is just how I feelz about this

-RageMasterUK

This ^

Stew · 2012-06-18, 12:36 PM

No way ENG already have repair tools and mana turrets having the Amo on top of thats simply broke the balanced of the game and make them OP |

Stew · 2012-06-18, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by Top Sgt

Giving them ammo packs however will promote lone rambo's to fly up on ridges/inaccessible areas & sit forever with unlimited ammo and just try & fire for kills. Ammo is then not being distributed to the below players near the objective who need it.

.

This is the same thing as saying ENG should not be able to drive a vehicules because they will be able to repair themself it will promote LONE RAMBO VEHICULES !

this is compleatly wrong ligth assault can more efficiently reach the team mates who needs amo to resuply them ASAP due to their great mobility !

Also ENG already have Repair tool and MANA turrets so Hell no this is madness to me

AMO pack + Mana turrets + repair tool the perfect ingredients to have an OP class Congratulation you just broke the game !

RageMasterUK · 2012-06-18, 12:43 PM

You cannot stop idiots joining PS, but that doesnt mean we should butcher the class based system to try and encourage them to not be idiots. Idiots will be idiots, whether they have the health, armour repairs or ammo that you need. If a player is an idiot you arent going to get much out of them regardless of their class. The very best you can do is stop playing with them, the worst you can do is change the fundamentals of a game to accomodate them.

Originally Posted by mintyc

with the greatest manuvrability i would much prefer the LA to be seting up flanking positions for a nice crossfire, harrying the enemy and spliting ther fire, not hanging around in the main squad.

Agreed. But as it is right now they dont need to hang around the main squad like medics and engis. Their ammo box is droppable. They only have to be around their squad for like one second to perform this re-arm function. CMs and CEs have to actively repair and re-health things. LA doesnt. Once you drop your ammo pack in a smart place you can go do whatever you want away from your squad. They dont need you to be there. They just need you to drop the bloody box in the right place. Which you will do if you want XP. This has to be the easiest support function of all classes, and players think LA will not do this? I am amazed people think so narrow-mindedly.

Originally Posted by mintyc

with an ammo pack a LA trooper would probably nest in a high up position thus removeing the need to move as a result of runing low on ammo. this extra time spent nesting would allow the enemy to respond with ground troops or ther own LA on mass. this will probably get the LA killed in a position that the teams medic cant get to and all of a sudden the team has lost its most manuvrable member and its ammo surply.

You start by saying LA is the most maneuverable class suitable for flanking and maneuvers and end up saying this class is going to play in a manner where he doesnt need to move.... hmmm. And you are blaming this on the ammo-pack ability it seems. You seem to think LA's are just going to magnetise to their dropped ammo box.

When I play LA I am going to want to know where my closest medic is at all times. Light armor means the enemy eats at your health alot sooner.

Anyhow the argument is as defunct as any class not performing their role. If medics just run off and dont heal and get killed the squad will be in a similar position. Same with CE. Same with LA. If you have crappy players then this will happen regardless of class. This is not a Light Assault/Ammo box problem. Its a bad-player problem.

Originally Posted by mintyc

so now you are in a position wher bad players run off with ther ammo packs and get themselves killed, and good players know that there squad cant afford them geting killed trying to flank.

I crave to be in this position. If I need ammo I expect the LA to be there, not off flanking like a solo-whore. Just the same way if I need health I expect the med there. If I need reps the engi has to be there. I want squads who have bad players in them to have weakness. Thats what makes a game interesting, that you can kill an essential part of the enemy team who has made a mistake and thus disrupt the rest of his squad.

LA just need to drop their ammo pack near their squad, it really is not rocket science. Then their squad doesnt have to care what the LA does. He can flank, man a turret, suicide if he really wants.

Originally Posted by mintyc

LA are, thanks to ther high manuvrability a high risk/high reward class with lower survivability than the other frontline troops in a stand up fire fight. LA survivability stems from there ability to escape from heavyer threats and reposition rapidly. so the LA will ether take light damage that will not need them to run back to a medic or big damage from being flanked or surprised, this would probably kill the LA outright due to low armour.

If that is honestly what you believe, we may as well remove their health bar entirely.

You are arguing pro LA lone-wolfing for sure... You want medics to stay squad-coherent and you want LA's wandering off is how I read it. Its just that you do not want LA's wandering off with the squads ammo. To solve that you want another class to have it. What happens when that class wander off instead? Just because they dont have a jumppack doesnt mean they wont go AWOL.

Maneuverability means being able to move about effectively. If an LA is using high-hide strategy they can easily drop down using gravity to their squad, re-arm and re-heal, and JetPack back to their spot once they've caddied their squad up. Its not rocket science.

You can still have your LA's doing flanking maneuvers and whatever else you're thinking of on their own. The ammo pack is pretty much insta-drop and sits on the floor. The Light Assault player does not have to be present to give his friendly players ammo. He just has to have been where the squad is briefly.

I dont know what the problem here with people hating LA having ammo boxes. They are dropped instantly and have almost zero impact on LA's combat ability. Medics and Engi's have to equip something non lethal and spend their time spraying their friendlies to help them. LA's just have to dash past their squad and hit a single button.

You can drop ammo as soon as you get into a control point with your team, and then leave for your high-hide position on your own. You can return when you need health or when your team needs a new ammo pack. You do not have to spend every waking moment with your squad, unlike CM or CE, to be effective.

LA's are more likely to die near their squad for a revive if they are given a reason to stay near their squad. A reason like XP from supplying ammo.

The roles of flanking-attack-trooper and ammo-caddy are not mutually exclusive. They are complimentary. The ammo-supply special ability means they have another reason to get off their camping spot and not be a lone wolf. Again I re-iterate, if the XP reward for re-arming is there, LA's will rearm people. Generally, players follow the XP.

-RageMaster